Which is more important now: political reform or the economy?

[FrakkinTheReturningOfficer]

Political reform is going to be bad for the economy, in the short term at least.

Sorting out the economy probably means putting political reform on hold.

Which would you choose?

"they hate the prospect of ordinary people controlling fiscal procedures, political procedures"

how much control did the worker Josef Soapski have in the Soviet Union? As soon as he piped up and asked for control, he was given a one-way trip to a Siberian gulag.

And the stock market rally before this was always dubious. Everyone was waving on the trigger event for the wave of sovereign default anyway...I mean all those debts didn't disappear overnight but in fact govts are caught holding the parcel so the underlying pressure is there regardless of which govt is in power.

There are lots and lots of loans that are due for refinancing that could come unstuck and result in another wave of melt down e.g. Commercial Property Loans CMBS structures

"tax the rich". And do you honestly think that will be enough? Just how much tax do you propose to take from the "rich" and what is your definition of "rich"? Given that only 10% of the population earns more than £50k a year. And while you can tax the middle earners the reality is that the higher earners (ie those earning millions) will only tolerate giving up so much of their income before they decide to call it a day and leave the country taking any revenue with them.

Greece has the option to leave the euro. We on the ther hand do not. Our currency is our own, and the more unstable our economy becomes, the less our currency is worth.

Savage public sector cuts so beloved of Thatcherites will reduce tax take quicker than anything else.

Britain, socialists in fact, built the NHS and free education in the rubble of WW2. In a much poorer country. Without recourse to unregulated debt markets.
The right have been trying to destroy those basic building blocks of democracy since then. The idea that private banking should be allowed to control our country, or any other, is outrageous. again it shows how much the faint prospect of democracy is despised by the right. they would rather the country was run by HSBC and RBS.
banking should not be allowed to be in private hands, period. it is far too dangerous, as recent events have underlined.
i'm not holding my breath however, and you might want to think what will happen in the next recession. what will be left to cut?
and there is no such thing as middle class, everyone who sells their labour is working class. about 99pc of us.

Haven't we all noticed that our currency dropped 25pc or so over the last year (not exact fall but it was significant). Another 25pc would hurt but it would bring our economy into better equilibium i.e. recognise that we are all poorer in dollar/gold terms?

TDiddy

A depreciating currency is definitely a sign of a weak economy but it also helps to mend it, by encouraging exports.

Greece is trapped in the Euro for political reasons, not economic ones. All economic sense says it should leave the Euro instantly.

I think that you could overplay the Capital Mkts arument. As I argued, the UK economy is heading for adjustment anyway and the pound fell big time in the last 18mths and the biggest impact was persistent inflation and less overseas holidays

The idea that European democracies should be dictated to by speculators is just loathsome. I'm amazed that any of you think this is OK. Do you actually believe in democracy at all?

what did the Soviet Union have to do with socialism? apart from maybe 1917-21 and that is highly arguable. it was state capitalism, have a look at China for another great example of state capitalism. the soviet system was supported by apparatchiks who parroted prevailing ideology, bit like this thread.

The Tories and Labour are just the politburo in disguise, or alternatively, they are a boardroom with competing managers. but their god is capital. they hate the distant prospect of democracy.

if you want a quicker way to have a balanced economy, not a perfect one, a more balanced one, then it is Scandinavia...

Political reform can wait. The economy needs sorting now. I don't know who is best to sort it, I don't care which way they choose to sort it but it is a far more urgent issue, IMO, than political reform which in the short term (and if done badly) will only fuck it up further.

This focus on political reform is detracting from the biggest mess politicians will have to step in to sort out. I absolutely take the point that politicians don't magically control the economy but they do influence it to a fairly large extent and this uncertainty and protest about political reform, making it one of the central issues in the debate over who sides with who to take power is screwing us over.

The economy for sure. Just been watching Sky and I have to say that the LibDems are massivley over playing their hand and endangering the economy as the hours tick by.

In 12 hours, the global financial market will start trading again in NZ/Aus and gaining momentum throughout the Asian trading day. By 4.00 pm Singapore time the trading books get transferred to London and literally billions of dollars of foreign exchange start pouring through London. The the European bond markets open at 8.30 am London time and all hell will break loose.

They have until 9.00 am tomorrow morning. We do not have the luxury of negotiatng for days here. We have 24/7 global capital and news media. This is not 1974.

Debt markets are not regulated they are regulated. It is true though there are rules. But those rules were/are way too weak and not enforced. the regulators, the career politicians, the banks, ratings agencies were all partly responsible.

they are all part of prevailing right wing commissar-culture, one that wants to centralise power in the hands of a very narrow set of interests. and those interests have nothing to do with the interests of ordinary people.

It comes down to a very simple principle IMO. If you believe in democracy, then you allow democractically elected politicians to enact the policies that have a mandate with the public, and you get the markets under control so that they can no longer hold entire countries to ransom.

The current market 'regulations' allowed Goldman Sachs to enact the most breathtakingly mendacious business dealings in Greek debt, for which ordinary Greek people are expected to carry the can while GS employees and shareholders bathe themselves in asses' milk.

The 'ordinary' public sector workers in Greece retire at 53 and think it's quite ok that other 'ordinary' folk in Europe work until they're 64-67 to pay for it.

They also thought it was OK to cheat on the system, making claims for non-existent olive groves. It's been going on for years and years.

If I were a low-wage worker in Germany I'd wonder why on earth I was funding this mess.

so pw, how do you propose to "tax the rich"?

There isn't a left in the UK, hardly at all. The Greens are certainly on the left but no one else is.

All the rightist arguments on here basically end up saying: why have elections? Let the markets run everything.

I believe in democracy, i'm an anarchist, i don't believe in centralisation of power, of political or fiscal elites.

It is true though, that - the markets - is where real power is. Politicians are just errand boys on the make...

Nationalise all banking, democratise the state, end career politicians, stop the creation of non-existent money that is handed out to private interests and then used to screw ordinary people...

Like i say, im not holding my breath. the collapse of the current political system will come a lot quicker than democracy...because the right would rather chaos and bloodshed than democracy and peace. always buy when there is blood on the streets

I believe in elections, but I also believe we need to listen to market forces or we end up screwing ourselves over.

Let's also remember economic policy was one thing we were voting on...

They could certainly do both at the same time. But the question is will the Tories allow it? If the Tories insist that they do not want electoral reform, the Liberals have to decide which is more important, the economy or PR. I think they will choose the economy in the national interest, and may unfortunately ditch PR. It is really in the hands of the Tories as to whether they allow us PR.