Tax Credits = benefit-dependent society?

[Chil1234]

Seems that the scariest thing facing many people on these boards about getting rid of the Labour government would be the prospect of a drop in tax credits and other benefits.

Being cynical, I'm now wondering if Labour didn't deliberately engineer the way tax credits work not solely to help those in genuine need but also so that the maximum number of people receive a portion of their income from the state. If it wasn't in part to create a culture of dependency and entitlement why else set the ceiling for receipt up as high as £50k?

It also works the other way - people overestimate what people in certain jobs get paid. We always hear about corporate lawyers on massive salaries, but the average salary of a Solicitor is about £40-50,000 (depending on which survey you look at) - not bad but a lot less than a lot of people's assumptions.

oojamaflip, yes, I know, that's why I said I must be living on a different planet!

I do see what someone lower down the thread was saying about postmen etc but unless you actually know those sort of people personally, they're on a different planet too.

Not expressing myself very well here so I'll bugger off, except to say that I don't think we & our friends are at all unusual, in our village virtually everyone lives in large old houses and have Saabs, Mercs, Porsches etc on the drives. It's not an unusual village, there are lots of them in the Henley area and some people live in humungous mansions (but they don't rub shoulders with us commoners!)

Yes about assumptions about high earners.

The people who are earning £££ are usually "hidden" from us, we don't know who they are (well until the banking crisis happened of course, those salaries/bonuses were news to a lot of people. thinkng "bankers earn an awful lot maybe £300K" and finding out it was more like £30million or whatever).

The interesting thing I found out lately was that average salary working in public sector is higher than average salary working in private sector. have been arguing with DH about public sector vs private sector and how it's all wonky for ages!

mumblechum - I was just quantifying it for you ;)

And whatever you may think you ARE unusual, your village IS unusual - you just live in an area where they are less unusual. And as you inidicate, no matter how wealthy you are there is always someone wealthier.

This makes me mad.

In my opinion -

The one thing will change the whole shape of this country would be a great cull upon the benefits system.

If benefits were only given to those whom had put in to England this would make a massive difference. Why is the National Health Service freely available if you are not a National, surely this makes a mockery of the title itself? Many people enter the country just to receive free healthcare.

If you have worked for five years you should be able to have five months on job seekers allowance, If you haven't worked you can't have the allowance.
If you are a pensioner who has worked in or for this country you will be aided.
If you have a disability you will be helped.

Do you honestly think that the mass of people that risk their lives on a daily basis and fight and clamour to enter Britain are eager to do so because of our amazing weather?

A child is something that should be carefully considered, a choice to be made. Child Tax Credit, Child Allowance and Child Benefit should only be given to those who have worked regularly and are of the legal age to have a child. Otherwise we are rewarding illegal sexual activity with monetary gains, what kind of message is this sending out to our children?

Council houses should revert back to what they were originally intended for when they were first designed. Priority should ALWAYS go to British Nationals, which by the way should be a coveted and privileged title made much more difficult to obtain.

Why is the £190 health in pregnancy grant is given in cash? It is designed for HEALTH in pregnancy but I can honestly say that in my experience the people I have spoken to have not used the funds for this means. In all honesty, if someone is unhealthy giving them £190 is not going to alter this, if they are healthy then they are paying for this already.
Why not give out £190 in vouchers for major food chains, to be used for fruit, vegetables and calcium ONLY. I would be willing to bet that a large portion of the vouchers would never be used.

Imsonottelling - very few bankers do get the ultra mega 10's of millions. I know one banker reasonably well, enough to know that a few years back he got paid £500,000 - maybe more now. So I naturally assume that's what everyone in banking gets paid now ;)

Oh ROFL.

That's like me saying "well I live in Highgate Village and no-one is poor, so i don't see that anyone in the whole of the rest of London can be poor".

Honestly mumblechum it's quite funny really. Or it would be if there weren't lots of people around like that.

As then (not you mumblechum, or maybe you, I don't know) you get the whole problem with "it's easy to earn lots of money, everybody i know does, if people aren't then they're obviousy thick/not working hard/lazy etc and why should I support them?". But it's a wrongheaded way of thinking, as loads of people work every so hard but don't get the same financial reward, and clobbering them and saying they are lazy etc is not a very kind way of being.

IMO anyway but then I am lefty lefty socialist type

Not me, ISNT, I don't mind my taxes (or dh's which are 10 times as much as mine!) going to help other people. We were both dirt poor in our youth btw, dh was in and out of care homes etc.

Oh I see the BNP have rocked up now. I may shortly.

"If benefits were only given to those whom had put in to England this would make a massive difference. Why is the National Health Service freely available if you are not a National, surely this makes a mockery of the title itself? Many people enter the country just to receive free healthcare."

People who have not lived in the UK for 12 months prior to treatment have to pay.

"If you have worked for five years you should be able to have five months on job seekers allowance, If you haven't worked you can't have the allowance."

So you would have people who fall on hard times excluded because they fell on hard times too soon???

"Child Tax Credit, Child Allowance and Child Benefit should only be given to those who have worked regularly and are of the legal age to have a child."

So some children get disadvantaged from birth? What a great start for them. You just keep going and we'll breed inequality right from the beginning.

"Priority should ALWAYS go to British Nationals, which by the way should be a coveted and privileged title made much more difficult to obtain."

Are you in the BNP, you are sounding like it.

"Why is the £190 health in pregnancy grant is given in cash? It is designed for HEALTH in pregnancy but I can honestly say that in my experience the people I have spoken to have not used the funds for this means. In all honesty, if someone is unhealthy giving them £190 is not going to alter this, if they are healthy then they are paying for this already.
Why not give out £190 in vouchers for major food chains, to be used for fruit, vegetables and calcium ONLY. I would be willing to bet that a large portion of the vouchers would never be used. "

Even the posters advertising it use the images of prams & so on. It is for the pregnant woman to decide herself what to use it for.

You want chains to get the funding. Lots of poorer people cannot afford to get to big supermarkets, so you are right. THe vouchers wouldn't be used.

So meat is not a valid use, or bread? What about fish?

All I can say is please don't let you be running for Government.

Good for you mumblechum

It's not about excluding people. Its abou encouraging people to work, Unfortunatly things have been made very easy and people are reliant on benefits and they are too lazy to work. (I am not being general here I am talking about memebrs of my own family)

Why should many people go out and work for a living whilst others just have children and do, well, not alot!

Yes there are genuine cases, but I am not the goverment. I am just making suggestions.

Oh and regarding the NHS - www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-401987/NHS-open-abuse-illegal-immigrants-claims-minister.html
Yes it is the Daily Mail but it has facts in it.

Mumblechum - Saabs aren't expensive - mine was 5k second hand when it was 4 years old.

CaptainNancy - in theory, I could work full time, yes. However, in my search for a job for the last 5 months, I have not found one single full time job that I am able to apply for. Reasons being that I can't drive - a lot of jobs require you t have a driving licence and access to a vehicle. The main reason is that I'm not qualified enough for them or don't have relevant experience.

I feel incredibly lucky that I've managed to find a part time job that I can do and that I will love getting up for in the morning, and that I'm able to do because tax credits will enable me to be better off than being on income support.

I don't have a support network of family and friends that can help with DD and so am limited in what I can do. I don't see doctors appointments etc as a reason for not being able to work full time - my parents managed fine when I was a child!

Maybe the amount of tax credits and what they pay for is wrong, but I, like others, wouldn't be able to come off income support without them.

As I said, I'm also studying for a degree, and when that's completed I have every intention of(and look forward to) going into full time employment.

Part time work for me is a short term thing, as I'm sure it is for many other single parents. I'm getting off my backside, getting off income support, getting a degree and returning to work, surely that's a god thing?!

*good

As a lone parent of one chld, I receive almost as much in tax credits as I do in wages. I work 30 hours a week as a teaching assistant. Without tax credits I would only have 700 pound a month to live on! IE, impossible, especially as the tax credits also pay towards the out of school club my son goes to before and after school hours. My salary is so low that even if I paid no income tax it would not equal the amount I get in TCs.

Maybe in the SE average salaries are better but here in the SW prices are as bad as london but wages are less than 20k on average. Here a loss of TCs would be disastrous for many.

As usual, the rest of the UK gets ignored!

Yes, tax credits do make us dependant. I would rather be paid a decent income and for all childcare to be subsidied at source. As it is, I have no choice. It's not worth my while getting paid more unless I get paid A LOT more, because if I WORK HARDER I GET PENALISED, however , in the current system, No TCs would mean abject poverty.

So does everyone think it's totally fair and understandable that a family with an income of £50k should be in receipt of benefits designed to top up a low wage? £40k? £30k?... Where would you place the cut-off?

I think it is almost impossible to just place a cut off at a certain level. It depends on things like number of children, level of childcare etc.

A family earning 50k with one child and no childcare costs do not need extra support.

A family earning 50k with perhaps one disabled child and two others with childcare costs of £1000 + a month may need extra support.

Altogether now.... MEANS TESTING!

I'm not doubting that people are truly deserving and in need of their tax credits but it does seem ridiculous that employers (in both the private and state sectors) don't pay their people a sufficient wage to live a decent life. Labour have allowed this to grow into a very serious problem for the state.

What I've learnt recently from mumsnet is that a certain amount of money may seem like loads to one family, and a pittence to another.

This £50k figure, to me, is a huge amount of money! I would be more than happy, comfortable and well off with just £20k. But for people in a different part of the country, £50k might leave them struggling to make ends meet!

The main differences in cost seem to be housing (here you can rent a large 3 bed semi for in the region of £500 pcm, but in other places, even a 2 bed flat would be twice that at least!) and childcare costs which also seem to vary greatly depending on where you live.

So it seems impossible to be able to distinguish a sensible cut off figure when there are so many individual factors to take into account.

Just wondering, those of you wanting to change tax credits, do any of you recieve it?

it is meanstested on your income!!

It does depend on the number of children, their age and how much your child care is.