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Politics

TORIES

344 replies

Eilatan · 25/01/2010 19:59

if they get in:

They'll end HIPS so my husband will loose his job
He's actually a teacher but can't get work cos the last time they were in they brought in 'cover supervisors' ...unqualified people who are doing our jobs
They do away with the 15 hours nursery care...all we do is wait for our little un to be 3 so we can just break even each month... but no doubt these evil so and sos will take it away to pay for the w(b)ankers ineptitude
I expect they do away with the trust funds too
Teachers wages will be frozen ...
Over 60s cold weather payments? Ha! last time they were in Edwina Currie advised them to knit woolly gloves!
Any tiny power the unions have been able to claw back will go...
We'll be back to teaching kids that homosexuality is wrong and if a piece of literature wasn't written by someone dead, white and male it isn't worth reading
...if they get in I'm jacking it all in... going to sell the house and live in a caravan... no way am I working on Maggie's farm again!

Don't be fooled by all that caring for the family rubbish. All those c care for is making their own kind richer.

PLEASE don't vote for them.

OP posts:
ElenorRigby · 28/01/2010 16:36

Peachy your post confused me as you are clearly well versed in Benefit abbreviations. I had to do some research, as I've never claimed benefits.
"youmorally more deserving of a better lifestyle I wonder?"
lol you should awarding us a medal for our tax paying prowess!
How truly philanthropic that we put others before us, that they may shop at Waitrose
Seriously though yours is a case of the deserving poor as opposed to the dole scum undeserving poor. DP and I are ok with our hard earned taxes going to the very deserving like you.
The amount you are getting does seem disportionate upon a brief trip round government websites and entitled to, but ho hum, musnt grumble.
Again how is right that a couple bring home £50K have to wonder from Lidl to Farmfoods to Iceland always on the look out for a bargain. My girls have most of their clothes bought at charity shops. We worry about being able to pay things like car tax, house insurance et al. But less of my meddlesome moaning,
Btw DP is studying full time for an MSc this year. He took a career break. We got bugger all help with that from the government either, oh no extra handouts for us of course. DP got a grant from a research body of some sort and a loan from his mum.
After all we are the undeserving middle income earners.

JeffVadar · 28/01/2010 17:21

The most powerful man in the country is Lord Mandelson; a man who is not a democratically elected MP.

I find that far more terrifying than the return of the Tories.

Personally, I think that the damage done by New Labour over the last 13 years far outweighs any good, and I just cannot wait for them to go. However, if they did win I think that the party would just implode; they obviously have no faith in Brown as a leader, but if he did win an election they would find it very hard to get rid of him.

mulberrybush · 28/01/2010 17:31

Hi manfrom

I think this is part of the trouble in getting this idea across.

The need for the National Care service is I think to set the standards, so that people can have a very clear expectation of the level of care that they will be able to receive.

At the moment the effect of the post code lottery is that no one has a clue. You expect that there will be some support if you are left at home with limited mobility etc, but each authority is interpreting this differently.

There is now some clarity with continuing care - but this relates only to the most high level care needs, where there is a very blurred line between what is health and what is social care needs.

In terms of provision, I think you are quite right that local delivery of the service can often be the best option. I would actively want to ensure that much more of the care is being delivered by small scale social enterprise. - and there is no reason why that can't happen.

So what we would be looking at is Clear national guidlines,and systems for monitoring delivery, and then local authorities commissioning the services from a wide range of different providers including voluntary, private sector, and social enterprise.

The part that interests me most in all of this is the funding issue. We are still at the point where social care is means tested. If you have over £23,000 then you effectively pay what I at times like to call the "dementia tax". which basically means you pay as much as it takes until you die or your capital falls below £23,000. There has been some modification to this now so that if you have a spouse living in your house, the house will not have to be sold for this purpose. - but this still does not go far enough.

I think in many ways this is a woman's issue. It is usually going to be a woman who faces the last years of their life alone, and is likely to have a smaller pension than the husband. Having seen how all of this affected my mother, and affected my family in looking after her it is something that frankly frightens me.

Having scuppered my career - and pension because of 8 years of caring for my mother, What I really do not want is the prospect of paying out tens of thousands of pounds for my care when I am older.

It is the unpredictability of this which is the problem. We can anticipate expenses like putting a child through university, or paying for a wedding, or helping a child buy their first home. - but we do not have any way of knowing how much our old age is going to cost.

A paper I wrote on all this about 5 years, which I believe may have influences the thinking behind the National Care Service, is called "spreading the risk". I did not think at that time that this government had accepted that they should help middle income people to prepare for their old age and still have the possibility of passing on an inheritance to their children. I think it is entirely to their credit that they have understood this. (Fot the record on this I joined the Labour party at the point when my MP showed very clearly that he understood this and would be actively campaigning for it)

What I was asking for, and I think what the national care service will give us, is a way of everyone accepting that old age will cost, and all entering into a national agreement to pay the costs, sharing the risk through what is effectively another form of national insurance (but with a different payment method.

When I speak to the increasing numbers of my friends who are now hitting the "aged parent stage" It seems to me that people are going to elaborate and often quite costly lengths to try and avoid the prospect of paying care costs.

My feeling is that we just need to accept that we have a truly scary demographic problem for the next 50 years, we haven't set aside the money as a country for it (in the way that the Swedish have done) - and it is ultimately going to make sense to choose to do this properly, and invest time, money, imagination and local committment in devising and delivering a decent care service.

As I indicated in my article, the conservatives simply do not see it this way. They have addressed the single issue of care in residential care, but the indications are that the insurance companies that they have been working with on this have cold feet. They think the £8,000 proposed premium won't cover it, and the voluntary schemes set up under Major certainly did not work.

Leaving the setting of provision levels to the local authority means that we get lost in complexity. No one see can who is getting what, and it is not until you are in this vulnerable position that you find that what you are being offered is simply not enough.

Peachy · 28/01/2010 17:44

Er Mum is paying for my MA, no help at all you know, dont know what made you think that.

CA isn't designed as a benefit per se, its compensation for abbreviated life chances- care for my boys would cost the Government £1000+ a week:instead they pay me £53.
you can't have doneentiled to on us as you know nothing of what Dh brings in; and ys I amvery welltrained in benefit speak- I used to be a manager for the charity HomeStart you see,lots of that involved in my job (paid not voluntary,I'm a magnet for bad luck but no bloody angel)

I am not sure where I said you were OK struggling? I do remember saying I sihed TC's could be weighted for more expensive areas but I think thats the opposite isn't it? Listen, until last year we were you pretty much, and yes I know exactly how you feel: I remember looking at someone I know who had her first at 16, 3 more in quick succession and never worked a day and had the buggy I couldn't affordto buy with both of us working.Now I have to say I wouldn't want her life becuase of things that ahd happened to her but I did definitely want her buggy. It felt very wrong.

Oh and I dont like the phrase deserving poor, it hs notions of Victorians chucking crumbs of bread at those judged deserving. I Much prefer fucking determined against the odds. Much more us tbh.

Kathyjelly · 28/01/2010 18:23

I can't say I'm a fan of any politician I can think of but we're up to our necks in debt.

Basically the Tories favour business and Labour favours the workers. Tories give opportunities to business, Labour gives resources to those in lower income brackets.

Right now I think we need business to do better so they can employ a few more people, get redundant people back to work and pay off some of the debt.

I wish we could find a sane party that manages a happy medium because I'm sick of boom and bust.

mulberrybush · 28/01/2010 18:39

here is a clip about some of the cuts being phased in by a newly conservative council www.expressandstar.com/2010/01/28/meals-on-wheels-and-care-charges-to-rise/

ElenorRigby · 28/01/2010 18:40

Peachy love: soz just got back from Iceland (2 Kingsmill wholemeal for £1.50, 4 pints of whole milk for £1, Quorn pieces for just £1!Bargain they are usually £2!)
oops cant reply right now in full 2 1/2yo DD falling asleep on lap...laters

lowenergylightbulb · 28/01/2010 18:54

Elephant

"lowenergy - you pick up on labour having not closed the gap between rich and poor, making university expensive (and can i just say they are f*ing bastards and hypocrites for that), and them being "toffs". What I don't get is, if you're pissed off with labour for having done these things, why would you favour the tories when they will (pretty much by their own admission/tradition) make things worse? They want university charges like those in the US where it can cost e.g. £30k to go to university. They really don't give a flyer about helping people out of poverty, mainly because it's alien to most of their supporters. As for being toffs - well need i say more? Seriously interested in why these particular failings of labour make you like the tories more."

I didn't say that I liked the Tories more, I think that this Labour regime have been as bad as, if not worse than, the preceding Tory one.

I suppose the Labour party have reduced inequality gap a little bit...many working families are now as poor as (and as reliant on government handouts) people who are unable to find work.

I will not be voting Labour or Tory.

oldenglishspangles · 28/01/2010 18:59

If labour do go I will hope they run a commercial with 'mind the gap' a la london underground and 'dont let the door hit your arse on the way out'

ElenorRigby · 28/01/2010 19:22

mulberrybush:
You were hinting about the Tory Axe falling on services for the Elderly.
I find that kinda funny.
My mum was a home help back in the '80's. Then the elderly were helped in their homes with the support of home helps, district nurses and meals on wheels. It worked, sometimes I went with my mum to help.
Fast forward to now ...
My best friend has a mother in her 80's. The support her mother has received has been pitiful. When my friend told me what had been going on I was shocked.

A local geriatric hospital was closed in 1999 under NEW Labour.
It was ime a fantastic place, my dear aunt had thrived there.
Now it's to be converted into expensive flats and houses..
Same old New labour?

scaryteacher · 28/01/2010 19:36

EMEC thanks for the PM nomination, but I'd rather run Defence or Education.

Capability - I only taught under a Labour government, but was educated under a Tory one at Secondary and beyond. Under the Labour government an awful lot of my salary seemed to go on buying resources, books and all the things needed (including a laptop as school wouldn't give me one), to do my job properly as well as making sure some of the students were fed each day. Many of my colleagues did the same. This was because Cornwall isn't well funded education wise by the government as it is a Lib Dem area and rural; and we all know how much interest this government takes in alleviating rural poverty.

Peachy · 28/01/2010 19:42

Look ER: we both have toddlers so I'll do you a deal. You transfer my boy's autism into your children and you can take the benefits. I would more than happily give every penny we ever get to see them free of this nightmare. I don't know what happened to you to make you feel so bad you have to be so snappy but it isn't my fault. maybe counting your blessings would be in order?

And BTW I make my own bread, far cheaper, and we're all allergic to milk so bargains or not pretty useless- unless Iceland and farm stores / Lidl ahve started allergy ranges lately? No? thought not somehow.

Time to leave the thread I think.

CapabilityGold · 28/01/2010 19:44

Hello Peachy
Thanks!

CapabilityGold · 28/01/2010 19:51

Nancy 66

I think you miss the point here. The Tory party of 14 years ago was what the Tory party has always been - give or take a few details. Leopards do not change their spots and political parties may play to the camera for votes but the Tory party has always been the party of the rich and priveliged - Thatcher's government was not an anomaly in essence. Not at all. Open your eyes.

CapabilityGold · 28/01/2010 19:59

Hello again Peachy

Just read some of the previous comments. You stick with you MA and good for you and yes "deserving poor" is a dreadful phrase: thoroughly Victorian as you say and to be avoided at all costs. You sound brilliant. Don't let the buggers get you down.

scaryteacher · 28/01/2010 20:04

'Leopards do not change their spots' which is exactly what I feel about Labour; New Labour is just a front for all the hard line socialists lurking in the rear.

catinthehat2 · 28/01/2010 20:07

Mulberrybush -

On Mumsnet you have hung around a few topics to do with party politics.

You are a prolific party online activist with a web presence designed to get your MP reelected.

You haven't set out to disguise what you are, but there is no doubt, as a professing activist, you are here for one purpose only, trawling around Mumsnet to increase the vote for David Kidney and his fellow MPs in the party.

I dreaded the hacks appearing when Manfrom posted earlier, but it's happening sooner than I thought.

And yes, its as cackhanded as I thought.

sallyjaygorce · 28/01/2010 21:20

ITsGrimupnorth

"I had a good free education under Thatcher."

"Your education wasn't free. And it was in spite of Thatcher."

Well, no obviously it wasn't free, my parents and millions more paid for it through taxes while they were out working. I then won a scholarship to an independent school which was free (for us) since my fees were funded by some dreadful Tory who wanted other kids to benefit from private education as his had done. So I had both. And I did benefit. Our local comprehensive was what Tony Blair's press secretary called 'bog standard'. The school I went to was not. I was lucky but I also worked hard and didn't take my opportunities for granted. Probably what comes of being from a working class background with parents and grandparents who thought looking after yourself was a source of pride, not a cause of resentment.

Between them Thatcher (under Edward Heath) and Shirley Williams screwed the grammar schools which worked brilliantly. I carry no torch for the Tories. I have voted Labour in the last few elections. But I am weary of the old polarised attitudes still trudging through these forums. So I will leave this one and go and talk about knickers and cocktails.

EdgarAllenSnow · 28/01/2010 21:55

ooh lovely! what a great bunfight!

most enjoyable ladies

MANATEEequineOHARA · 28/01/2010 22:10

What is wrong with the 'Hard line Socialists'. Genuine question because I know a BIT about socialism, but don't understand what is wrong with it!
(Other than that my mother is 'A Socialist!!!)

MANATEEequineOHARA · 28/01/2010 22:11

Last post SOOO badly worded!

mulberrybush · 28/01/2010 22:27

Hi ElenorRigby

My position on this is quite complex. I experienced 8 very difficult years nursing my mother with dementia. I was never happy with the support that was available.

My interest in all of this predates my joining the labour party, and my initial contacts with my MP were purely to complain about how awful it all was.

What happened is that I began to research the problem of care and care funding very thoroughly.

What i found is that we hadn't set aside money in the way that Sweden had back in the 1970s, and because that we had a pretty huge funding gap opening up by the mid 1990s. This was coupled with the very rapid increase in life expectancy (drugs and acute medicine)so that people were living not just into their 70s and perhaps 80s, but into their 90s and 100s.

John major's solution to the funding gap that this was causing for the health service was to set up the trend that you spotted of closing down the geriatric hospitals and moving people into community care. You had the trend towards privatisation and the rapid expansions of small private care homes at that time.

None of that was necessarily wrong, but it did shift the funding burden from health service, and therefore free at the point of need, to Care service and therefore means tested. A lot of people protested fairly strongle which is why this was an issue in the 1997 election

When Labour came in in 1997 they did what they had promised to do and set up a royal commission to look at how care funding could be better managed. I think that when they came in they were committed to live with the Conservative spending restraints for the first years, and therefore I think when they realised the financial implications of implimenting the full recommendations of the royal commission they panicked. They did then what they did with a number of subsequent reports. They picked up the major recommendation of the problems that needed correcting most urgently, so we have been through the process of taking back the costs that were clearly "health care" into health funding, and trying to distinguish between health and social care.

The reason that I personally think that the National Social Care Package really matters -and it is no skin off my nose if we dont get it, but it could certainly benefit many of you, is that this is the first time when there has been a really thoroughly researched approach to working out how we can deal with funding the vast increase in the very elderly we are expecting in the next 50 years.

As I have indicated most of the impetus for this came from ordinary people, many of whom had like myself gone through the experience of dealing with the last illnesses of their relatives. The consultations were not government led, but they were listened to very thoroughly.

I am certainly no defender of the status quo. I want us to have something much better. It is of course up to you to decide if you are more likely to get a service that we can all be happy with by design, or by the chance that a combination of private sector providers and volunteers will spontaneiously develop services of equal quality all over the country and that we will all happily decide to go out and buy care insurance!

I would estimate that my mother's care cost my family in the region of £100,000. (rather more than that if you start trying to calculate my loss of earnings) The quality was never good enough. If she had been poorer she would have been looked after, If she had been richer, then none of this would have been a problem, she would have had a pension big enough to cover her care fees. It is the people in the middle who are suffering now from this.

I see many of my friends heading towards all of this and I can see it is preventable. All it takes is the kind of vision and will that was there there when my parent's generation decided to set up the NHS

Builde · 29/01/2010 09:51

Our Tory candidate is going to vote back in hare coursing, stag hunting and fox hunting.

Depressing...

skihorse · 29/01/2010 09:58

Our Labour candidate is going to vote for the continuation of unpayable debt which will end up with us going to the IMF and our grandchildren paying off our unsustainable borrowing.

Depressing...

At least the foxes will be able to rummage through the uncollected bins.

stuffedmk · 29/01/2010 09:59

As far as I can see if you earn a reasonable amount of money (read, don't get help from government at present) and are confident that your circumstances will not change in that respect, then a Tory vote will probably make no difference to you or make you better off.
If however you are not so lucky then you will be f**ed if conservatives get in.
The problem is that most of the tory voters will go out and vote but a large proportion of people with low incomes are not bright enough to realise (and therefore be motivated enough to get off their arses to vote against tory) how a change in government will affect them.
I for one will be voting labour because it is one vote not for conservatives, not because I paticularly like the current government. I simply know that a tory government will be worse for my family and I believe for people in general.
I actually prefer the lib dems but despite what the media will tell you there are people capable of tactical voting, and I would rather give my vote to the party most likely to keep conservatives out this time.

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