Does anyone really think The Lord’s Prayer and The National Anthem…

[CurlewKate]

…belong in Council meetings? And if so-why?

What do people then think of councils catering to religious dietary expectations then? With menus being changed to all halal or kosher?

Councils with large numbers of councillors of faiths with dietary requirements have catered for their needs for decades - why on earth wouldn’t they?

Definitely not the prayer. Not appropriate and should not happen in Parliament either, divisive and excludes people of other faith or none.
National anthem is just wasting time at the start of the day but I don’t think it’s inherently wrong.

I say this as a Christian who tries (and often fails) to live up to the Lords Prayer

The whole thing is ridiculous. The biggest scandal is that Reform in Kent blocked the reading of a water security proposal to discuss this nonsense instead. Because us Kent types don’t need water, we just need prayer. They’re an embarrassment, and my fellow Kent residents voting them in are an absolute embarrassment too.

Vote for a circus, get clowns.

But its common in Labour and LibDem councils as well especially in religiously diverse areas where they invite different faith leaders to improve cultural awareness.

Are you against this as well?

Cos it's not like water security is an important issue in Kent.

Blimey, even I know about Kent's water issues.

I was very unhappy with Pickles and that Act in 2015.

IIRC it arose because a council in Wales had a Christian act of worship in the council chamber at the beginning of every meeting, and many councillors weren't Christian.

One side argued that those who didn't wish to take part could just wait outside the council chamber until those in the chamber were ready to start council business.

The other side argued that those who wished to worship before the meeting could do so outside the council chamber and at a time of their choosing before the scheduled council meeting.

I think the latter was the right course, and that space should have been available in the building for the small groups having their own acts of worship before the meeting.

Pickles went the other way.

If they're going to insist on spending council time, in the council chamber, on something like this, then a contemplative "thought for the day thing" from a variety of religions and secularists is the way to go. It might actually add something positive; rather than being simply be an exercise in control.

We're no longer in the C15th where a single church controls everything that happens in the country and nigh 100% of the population is Christian. We are actually allowed to be atheist now, or even – horrors! – religions other than Christianity.

Yes, that is right re the history of the SI.

Pickles is a horrible man.

His comments on Grenfell.

They aren't changed to ALL halal/ kosher / whatever. They include a variety of meals, so everyone has some options no matter their dietary requirements.

I would expect them to also accommodate vegetarians, vegans, and people with common allergies/ food intolerances.

I think the National Anthem is a bit different because it is more about national identity than religion. That said, King Charles is head of the Church of England, so the two have always been linked in Britain.

The Lord’s Prayer feels less fitting in council meetings today because not everyone shares the same faith. Personally, I would rather either no prayer at all or some genuinely inclusive approach, rather than assuming one set of beliefs represents everyone.

But I do sometimes wonder if removing shared traditions completely just creates a different kind of problem. People often talk about “neutral” public spaces, but in reality every group brings its own values, beliefs and expectations into them.

Society then ends up trying to work out whose values take priority when they clash. Liberal societies/groups are often expected to do most of the accommodating, which can sometimes leave people feeling there are no longer any shared norms holding things together.

I would have more respect for the people voting this in (though would still disagree) if they were all committed members of a church community.

Voting is useful. However, in shared civic spaces such as councils, I think there should be broad agreement and neutrality around the promotion of any particular religious or ideological practice. Equally, it should not be possible for democratic processes to override fundamental principles such as equality under the law. In a liberal society, freedom of belief matters, but so do shared civic standards and equal treatment within public institutions and spaces.

Why not.

What values would those be? It’s performative.

It might be useful to read the parable of the widow’s mite.

The dirge is about wishing one man well and to be treated nicely by his preferred religious entity, not anything actually about the country.

And when you get to the prayer, chances are that with more than 2 people in the room, whichever version is said is wrong for the other(s).

Great in a Church but most of them do not attend so probably their big chance!

National anthem perhaps pretend its the 70's switch of the tv at nights and stand to attention!

Flags should be waved in celebration not stuck on a lamp post like a dog marking its territory

Yes, the country is built on Christianity. All the basic values you use everyday even if your not a Christian are Christian values. You dont have to join in if you dont want to. National anthem yes, people should try to be more patriotic.

It is Reform trying to follow Trump by appealing to the Evangelicals I think. Farage is probably getting bungs from them via his cletpto to promote the word of God...

Yes, this is what the entire meeting will end up being about so they don't have to actually spend time on the real jobs in case they mess them up. "But Colin says Hallowed Be Thy Name & Barry is right with his Lead Us Not Into Temptation!"
"I think we should change it to Deliver Us From The Brown People"!

The fact that it's presumably the CoE version of the Lord's Prayer for starters.

Plus the fact that plenty of non Christians have perfectly sound and even spiritually grounded values that align completely with civic virtues.

The country was 'built' by ruthless exploitation of the poor and the powerless both at home and abroad, the extraction of natural resources from all over the globe sent back to Britain for manufacture and resale for a massive profit.

Its history featured protracted wars and persecution based on sectarian divisions, oppression of Catholics and Jews and Non Conformists, theft of land and property and destruction of Christian church property, and long campaigns by abolitionists, socialists, and suffragettes to make the powerful acknowledge the humanity of the powerless and oppressed.

This is true in some ways, we definitely did take resources but you've got to look at how far we brought some nations. Zimbabwe was filled with mud huts when we arrived and when we left it was the bread basket of Africa, and was comparable to most European nations. Same with Australia. I think we did lots of bad but I also think we did lots of good things, like ending slavery.

There should be no requirement to be a Christian or a monarchist to serve on a council. I mf members want to pray and sing they should do it on their own time. There isn’t enough time for business as it is.

Stopping doing something after you've made billions from industrialising the suffering of other humans (and handsomely compensating those who have profited out of it) isn't that much of a flex, really. It's like Germany saying 'but we're not sending Jews to concentration camps anymore and Israel's done well financially out of it from the scattered remains of the people, haven't we done well in bringing them along so far?'.

The thing is though everybody did it since the beginning of time and we were the ones to stop it. Thats a good thing atleast. Let's not act like us brits were the only ones who did it. Africans, Asians, Americans all did it