Oh Lord! Kent County Council

[Imdunfer]

Kent County Council under Reform are putting a vote to full council to start council meetings with the Lords Prayer.

I get the anti Muslim bit, but don't they realise how many of us are atheists?

They also want to sing the National Anthem. I can sort of see their point with that one, but it's not going to get the bins collected, is it?

Oops sorry yes that's true. Although we are talking about Kent!

Only faith schools, I believe - so those who made an active choice. And if we’re talking about cohesion, there are more secular/non-faith people than there are Christians in the UK, according to data.

If they said that they were praying for the souls of the corrupt Nigel Farage or the racists within their party, then I think they’d be more convincing.

It’s not supposed to get the bins collected per se. It is intended to engender a shared sense of purpose among the councillors who may come from very different backgrounds. It is that shared sense of purpose that will get the bins collected and the pot holes fixed.
No one can make you say the Lord’s Prayer or sing the National anthem if you don’t want to. Reflect upon that for a moment That is part of our great democracy that allows freedom of expression. Other countries aren’t so tolerant of dissent.

The shared sense of purpose should be the people of Kent, not an imaginary skyfairy.

There's nothing unifying about compulsory time wasting prayers and flag waving.

As for schools, I have long thought that the words 'compulsory ' and 'worship' should not coexist in the same sentence, especially not in a democratic and diverse country.

And how can praying to one set of people's god achieve that when the majority are either non believers or follow a different god?

You cannot reasonably use both the cohesion argument and the tolerance argument at the same time to defend this practice, they are at odds with each other. If ia display of religion created cohesion then it would not need to be demanding tolerance from others.

Given how few people the joining in with the lord's prayer and group singing is at most weddings, baptisms and funerals I can only imagine how straggly, half hearted and pathetic the prayer and anthem will sound at 8.30am in Kent Council's Office.

Half of the councillors will be thinking what a waste of my time, several others will be worrying about their presentation on pot holes and one will worrying journalists have found his old tweet denying the holocaust.

Very few!

A shared sense of purpose through singing the National Anthem - fair enough. But reciting a prayer that is meaningful to less than half of the population is divisive. It serves to emphasise differences. It creates hostility to those who do not wish to participate and excludes from public service those whose faith forbids them from participation in the prayers of other faiths.

The UK may be nominally Christian, but IIRC only about 40% of the UK population identified as Christian in the last census. Would Reform say that every meeting should begin with recitation of Reform slogans or their manifesto? It’s just as reasonable as beginning with The Lord’s Prayer.

What if the councillors convening are a collection of Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Christians? What prayers will they agree on?

They will agree not to recite prayers.

Or they could take turns - faiths and denominations on rotation. You could have a lot of fun turning this against the Reformites who are bringing this in.

They can take turns. That is what the Pickles bill says I think.

I would imagine the council workers can wait outside. And ideally, councilors themselves can recuse themselves if any conflict of interest comes up, in terms of religion ?

What a waste of time. And, again, divisive.

Having just watched The Pilgrimage shows this could be a good thing.

The people taking part all experience bits of each other's faiths and really enjoy and benefit from it. Of course they're open minded and are seeking greater understanding from the outset. Would the Reform candidates approach it in the same way I wonder?

And what will the humanists recite?

As a Catholic, I think either they should go back to this country’s Catholic roots which were a lot longer than this Henry VIII wanting a divorce nonsense- and have full Latin Mass with all the singing and incense and stuff at the start of council meetings. The only other reasonable alternative I can think of is to start the meeting by saying good afternoon or whatever and asking for apologies and conflicts of interest and letting people get on with prayer and worship in their own time.

You can’t pray for his soul until he’s dead…

I wouldn’t be praying for his soul either way, but you absolutely can pray for someone living’s repentance…

I'm sure they'd come up with something. A poetry reading, sharing culture and language and the beauty of words would be highly appropriate.

I don't think it is being done because all of the Reform members are Christian, it is designed to be anti-Muslim.

As for the National Anthem, there is not an English one. The United Kingdom is a union of nations.

Can't say I could get upset about 2 prayers that took place in 2014 and 2017!!! Also the author is berating an Iman for reading a gentler version of the quoran. Most don't go along with our old testament brimstone and ashes in the Christian faith either. Either all faiths should be represented respectfully with all involved or none. In this current climate I (as card carrying Christian) think secular has to be the way forward

Fun, sounds like show and tell.
Will they also do some productive work? 😂

I’m a practicing Catholic- no place for prayers before Council meetings. It’s just divisive and wastes time. I would actually prefer a secular state at the level of government business. I didn’t go to a religious school and found being made to say prayers offensive even though I actually believed in them.

It does need some care though - secularism can also be used for hatred if extreme. If you go as far as no religious symbols at all in public life different groups are excluded (as prayers exclude atheists). This has been seen in France where staff and pupils in state middle and high schools cannot wear conspicuous religious symbols. Although meant to be equal it mainly affects Muslim girls, a small crucifix is acceptable but no headscarf at all, no turban affecting Sikh pupils

A small group of Secularists have repeatedly tried but currently failed to ban Muslim mothers accompanying children on school trips from wearing a veil. Le Monde article

I'm reminded of this oldie.

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