Why is socialism viewed so negatively in politics and media?

[Vix150]

Why do people not like socialism?

To me it doesn't seem disastrous but it's portrayed in the media as a horrific way for a society to run.

Any thoughts?

FS (DB) schemes were on the way out long before Brown, mainly because of life expectancy, poor returns, esp in Bonds & low interest rates.

As you say Brown was the final straw but he just hastened their end.

Think about it, if a DC scheme investing in the same markets as a DB scheme can only pay out around a 1/3rd of that of a DB scheme.... where is the other 2/3rds coming from???

I don't begrudge anyone taking adv of x or y, we all would, its the constant grasping for more that pisses me off.
The moment anyone suggests removing even minor things from pensioners, they are screaming and shouting, yet they are the first ones to say 2 child cap should be reimposed.

I'd means test triple lock, introduce NI, scrap free prescriptions... but it would have to be done cross party... so wont happen.

@Wizeman That's what is meant by "in real terms". It's adjusted for inflation. So it does matter. The pot has not shrunk, that's a story that people are being sold in order to make them accept being poorer.

Think about it, if a DC scheme investing in the same markets as a DB scheme can only pay out around a 1/3rd of that of a DB scheme.... where is the other 2/3rds coming from???

It's coming from the tax payer.

Defined Benefit schemes are almost all only in the Public Sector and unfunded.

That's because they are unaffordable.

I am a retired recently teacher but about to start supply. I’ve never told classes what I vote. I taught English and Media and both required that students understood socialism and capitalism, for instance, Inspector Call for literature, I, Daniel Blake for media, Animal Farm for y9, that sort of thing. As I believe compassionate capitalism is possible, (but largely non existent) I believe I was able to achieve reasonable balance in my explanation . I would shut down any comments about the supposed benefits of Reform though as I believe that party is a threat to the protected behaviours that schools must maintain. Education and curriculum is mostly centre left. Or at least ideas that were left once are now mainstream. When I started teaching section 28 hadn’t been repealed and my cohort of student teachers were really worried about it. Our tutor told us our biggest responsibility was the welfare and safeguarding of children in our care. She said LGBT kids (it stopped at T in those days) were statistically at higher risk of mental health issues and suicide so we should do our best to ensure they weren’t othered or marginalised. I broke the rules of section 28 as much as I could. I had to teach section 28 when I taught the gay magazine ‘attitude’ for A level media. I didn’t choose to but it was in specification to teach it for context. I was factual and didn’t express opinion but I didn’t have to, the facts spoke about what Thatcher was for themselves. I don’t teach history but she’s covered in units about AIDS, the Cold War and miners strike and I don’t believe in a complimentary way but again, the facts speak for themselves - don’t they? Woman was poison. My English teacher was left wing and didn’t hold back, I loved his lessons the ideas he discussed. This was in the early 80s, we didn’t expect to grow up to be honest, we expected to be fried by the war mongering of Thatcher and Reagan, racism was rife, homophobia was rife, as working class kids we didn’t expect to progress. Tell what wasn’t there to hate about Thatcher?

Most current public sector DB schemes are fully funded now and require very high contributions from the scheme member.
The LGPS actually returns a profit.

Public schemes were not affected by Gordon Brown, i'm talking about and i presumed you were, the death of DB schemes in the private sector.

I went from having a predicted DB pension of around 15k per year to 5k but contributions stayed the same..... the deferred scheme almost went under too.

Its simple maths, DB schemes relied on higher interest rates, Bond values and people not living into their late 80s/90s....

Most current public sector DB schemes are fully funded now and require very high contributions from the scheme member.

They absolutely are not.

They require contributions from the members but they are not nearly enough to cover the benefits received and the rest is paid out at the time of retirement from taxation. In common with most people, private sector and public, you clearly have no idea just how much it costs to provide a pension that is index linked, salary related, with early retirement for ill health and a surviving partner pension.

A quick Google would have told you these schemes are unfunded and make up the vast majority of Public Sector employees.

The main unfunded schemes include:

• NHS Pension Scheme
• Teachers' Pension Scheme (England & Wales)
• Civil Service Pension Schemes
• Armed Forces Pension Scheme
• Police Pension Schemes
• Firefighters' Pension Schemes

To add,

And the contributions being paid by public sector workers are not being invested to pay for their pensions, they are being used to pay the pensions of people who have already retired.

This started with you blaming Brown for the collapse of DB schemes, once i pointed out these were unsustainable regardless of his policies, you then quickly moved on to Public Sector schemes, a totally different subject of debate.

I should have said i was referring to the LGPS, fully funded, with 7m active and retired members, with funds exceeding £400 billion, apologies for that.

The NHS one, is re accessed every 4 years and funds paid in, inc those from the employer ie the state, matched to pay out pensions.

Are you suggesting that the "state" should make no contribution to these schemes?

I believe Reeves is trying to make some public sector schemes for market based but this is met with a great deal of opposition.

But all of this is nothing to do with you blaming Brown for the collapse in private sector DB schemes, which he was not.

You shut down any talk about the benefits of Reform, a party that could form our next government and that is leading in the polls. Why would you do that? For one thing, it would probably inspire a lot of the class to vote Reform given how teenagers often like to rebel against what authority figures dictate....Or it would teach other children to be fearful of a Reform government but unable to debate properly as they don't know or understand both sides of the argument.

Reform is not actually an extreme right wing party and its policies are mainstream. So why would you not allow a proper debate so that the policies can be investigated properly by your class rather than censored? And so they can make their own minds up rather than only have what you think their opinions should be and within parameters set by you? It seems a dangerous approach. The world has changed and children need to know politics has shades of grey on both sides of the political spectrum.

So it's my fault you don't have a clue about how the majority of public sector pensions are funded 😆 ?

The NHS one, is re accessed every 4 years and funds paid in, inc those from the employer ie the state, matched to pay out pensions.

I don't know what assessment you are taking about, but the NHS scheme is unfunded The contributions being paid in today are being used to pay out pensions being paid today to people who are already retired.

Are you suggesting that the "state" should make no contribution to these schemes?

I didn't write it so of course I'm not 🤷‍♀️

would shut down any comments about the supposed benefits of Reform though as I believe that party is a threat to the protected behaviours that schools must maintain.

@SevenYellowHammers did you shut down comments about the supposed benefits of far left parties?

Depends, if they tried to tell me the benefits of Maoist China or Stalin , then yes. In fact any party, left or right that was as openly racist (amongst other things as Reform).

What racist policies do Reform have?

The two that come to mind regarding policy are the scrapping of indefinite right to remain and the refusal of visas to citizens from countries seeking reparations for slavery. Beyond policy, their leaders signed his name with the Nation Front logo and made gas hissing noises at Jewish students. This was reported by his teachers at a private school. Several councillors have left reform due to racism within. They are as far right as can be without being all out fascist.

For one thing there’s little time in modern curriculum for debate. I find that pretty sad.

But the degree of toxicity in classrooms can’t be underestimated. The speed that it happened after Brexit was breathtaking. It’s as if it opened the floodgates and all the hatred came out. Since Brexit I have felt you had to keep the lid on class discussions in case something offensive is said.

I recently retired from teaching (am going to do supply) after 25 years and things have turned very weird and tense. The misogyny is palpable too.

You also have to believe me when I tell you management can and do drop into your class at any time and if say, they come in when you’re supposed to be teaching Ozymandias and you’re discussing Nigel Farage you’ll be in disciplinary procedure in no time. Although, actually, Farage and Ozymandias might be quite apt?

Aside from all that, I don’t believe reform are mainstream and I think we should all fear a Reform government.

Nigel Farage’s posh private school raised concerns about him signing his name with the National Front logo . He made gas hissing noises to Jewish students. He complains about people speaking foreign languages in public. One of his councillors said he wanted to nuke Muslims. One of Reform’s policies is to deny visas to people from countries which seek slavery compensation.

If Reform isn’t a racist party, why do racists love it so much? After news was posted about people dying on small boat channel crossing, Reform voters commented “As Tescos said, every little helps.” And posted ha ha emojis. They had Reform logos as their profile picture. How could anyone be so callous and cruel? Some Reform councillors have left due to racism in the party.

Reform is not a good party, it attracts mean people. Thankfully people are wising up and they’ll go the way of all Nigel’s nasty parties.

Socialism is a fantastic idea, it's just that it doesn't work in the real world or with human nature.

So whilst at a family level, I would absolutely be prepared to skip meals and go seriously hungry so that my child could eat properly.
I may even be prepared to say skip deserts and go a bit peckish so that someone I know in my local community could eat properly.

However would I go slightly hungry so that a random person that I don't know who lives hundreds of miles from could eat properly then due to selfish human nature the answer is no.

So in short socialism is great in theory, it's just that it doesn't work with human behaviour.

You're conflating two separate things. The behaviour of a child with policies of a political party. You're a teacher. Do children sometimes say things that you think they should be responsible for decades later as an adult? I find that hard to believe in your particular career.

Extending the period needed before benefits are paid to the Boris wave will stave off the pending bankruptcy of the UK. It's a policy that will benefit us all rather than simply one cohort of non UK citizens. It's not racist. It simply applies to non UK citizens and is entirely practical economic sense.

Seeking trillions in "reparations" for slavery that didn't happen to anyone alive today is ridiculous and an aggressive policy to the UK. Perfectly reasonable to deny visas. Cause and effect. Not racist.

Good that Reform are kicking out inappropriate councillors. Would that Labour would do the same.

Im happy to believe that classrooms are now tense but I don't think shutting down debate is the answer. As a parent of teens I would not be happy if a teacher imposed their own political world view on my children particularly if it was a left wing view as I believe the left have caused huge damage to UK society over the years. But similarly I would not want to push my own Conservative centre right wing agenda on my children. I think teachers should give the child the tools to think and make up their own minds rather than being taught the "correct" way of thinking. And be given all the facts rather than putting a spin on a particular side.

Trying to control minds like this won't help matters. Teaching children to fear the next potential government is hardly going to lessen tension! Same with Brexit. If someone rams down children's necks that leaving the EU has no good sides whatsoever (and the Brexit debate clearly had good and bad on both sides hence the close result) then obviously many may have been terrified once Leave won and see it as the greatest calamity and that the country will now collapse. Rather than be able to roll with it, as in a country with 70 million there's not much you can do other than exercise your own vote in the way you yourself see fit.

Reform are mainstream whether you like it or not. You're not taking a stand against Hitler here, however much you may think you are. And you are not giving kids the ability to argue for or against their policies. It's a great worry that government school inspectors are so biased and politicised not to allow discussions relating to a particular UK political party. Surely this should be more widely known?

Reform are the party political wing of racism. Their councillors are largely useless and have no idea of how to do local government.

Yes, there have been councillors kicked out for saying shocking things and show their true colours. But equally, some are leaving of their own accord, embarrassed by what they have joined.

To give oxygen to Reform’s views in a classroom would be against equality laws. I would have other children’s mental health to consider, plus little Nigel/Negella’s if they perhaps unwittingly repeated something they’ve heard from their Reform supporting dads. Potentially, they could be excluded for repeating something they’ve heard about Islam, for instance .

My political views are not the business of other people’s children and I don’t attempt to influence their views, if that’s what you’re suggesting. I have to explain right and left as context to certain texts and topics. I stick with the economic definitions rather than the social. I can’t tell kids what to think but I do try to help them to think. I don’t seek to control minds . Why would teachers be able to control teenagers’ minds? Their parents can’t!

Anyway, the simple answer to the OPs question is that socialism is given a bad press because a lot of media is owned by capitalists. Bad News sells (Glasgow University Media Group’s studies) and in a news media saturated society negative headlines provide money for the capitalists through sales and advertising. That’s just my opinion but it’s not an uninformed one.

Truth be told, there’s no perfect system and our economy is vulnerable to the behaviours of other countries. But much of the rights and benefits we take for granted are from trade union and equality activism. Those hard won rights and benefits will be removed if we don’t fight for them. The ruling classes don’t have track records for benevolence.

Now, I’m going to politely say goodbye. I hope things go well for you and you don’t vote for unkind people.

Fair enough. Yes I won't be voting for socialism so won't be voting for "unkind" people.

Edit...The Nigel/Nigella comment may better be applied to Labour given their and Reforn's respective voting base.

This!

Last night on GB News, (yes I watch it among a lot of other stuff, for a point of view I can obtain nowhere else), there was a Labour politician whose name escapes me now. He had just watched a BBC exposé of how asylum seekers are being taught to pretend that they are gay (tonight's episode is how they are taught to pretend to be the victims of domestic abuse, BBC main news).

This MP, questioned about this BBC evidence, said he prefers to believe what people who ask for his help tell him.

Socialism is based around a premise that if you treat people with kindness they will behave well. It flies in the face of what we know about basic human nature. And it's a key reason, going back to the thread title, why so many people distrust socialist politics.

Most media is right wing.

Eg Daily Telegraph; Daily Mail; Daily Express; The Times; The Sun.

Vs The Guardian & Daily Mirror.

Then there's "Tory Laura" Kuenssberg & Isobel Oakshott.

Most people (as already covered on this thread) don't get their news from newspapers any more, even if they are online.

And you forgot the BBC. Not many Reform/Conservative supporters working there.

LK doesn’t represent the BBC, she stands out because most working there will be left wing.

She has a powerful platform.

Then there's SKY & the right wing world of Murdoch.