Why is socialism viewed so negatively in politics and media?

[Vix150]

Why do people not like socialism?

To me it doesn't seem disastrous but it's portrayed in the media as a horrific way for a society to run.

Any thoughts?

@Alexandra2001 my point was that it was hugely unpopular at the time and yes - unaffordable for some who thought they would go to university for free like their predecessors. You're looking at it through rose tinted glasses.

Blair's obsession with 50% of young people going to university was short sighted. Thankfully, that is now clear and we are starting to turn the tide.

No one mentioned (not that i saw) on "popularity" and hence i wasn't replying to that, nor was there any mention of his 50% aim, an aim btw carried on by subsequent Govts for the next 14/15 years.

Not Rose Tinted.... the simple fact is that 9k to go to Uni and getting a mtce grant, is good vfm, though i think FE and HE should be free but not subject to arbitrary percentages, all that seems to have done is manufacture poor courses and high debt.

The debate ought to be Why do UK young people pay 50k where as most young people in Europe pay around 3k to 4k euros and have high levels of Uni attendance, at around 34/36%, we are around 37/38%

On Turning the Tide, be careful what you wish for, there is no alternative to Uni for many, decent time served apprenticeships don't exist (in the numbers required)

Err, seriously? The post you replied to read as follows:

'an affordable £3,000 per year...'
Yes, I remember how popular that was at the time. No protests at all.

No mention of 'popularity'? Really?

Fairer to say unpopularity maybe?

@TeenagersAngst

Really? it might pay you to read the thread properly, instead of what you think i said.... .....

This is what i originally replied to with first mention of the "affordable £3000..." (no mention of popularity...)

Which you then jumped on.....

Please feel free to look at my post from 14.17 today on page 18...

Imdunfer · Today 13:48
Blair completely changed the way GPs were remunerated and the way Universities were funded.

and..

Imdunfer · Today 13:30
Blair was a conservative. He put competition and profit into everything from doctor's surgeries to universities. That's all gone terribly well, hasn't it?

You’re right and I apologise.

Because it doesn't work. Humans are programmed to be selfish by nature for their own survival. There must be a reason why people get more conservative and right wing as they age.
It is firstly that they have more to lose if capitalism were to collapse i.e. I want my workplace pension. It's earlier and better than the state one.
But also as you age, you become more cynical and realise people make choices and state imposed socialism isn't the answer to any issues really. Freedom of thought and action is what matters.

No problem at all, its hard to keep up on threads sometimes.

Probably more to do with cognitive decline and selfishness as those older people are only too keen to claim and demand everything they can get from the state...

WFA
Free Perscriptions
Demanding Energy Support
No NI
Pension credits

So a circular economy? Everybody starts their own business and people buy from them and they buy from the next person etc. Like bartering. Except there are those who have a lot more to barter with. If you and your children are about to be kicked out of your rental you have nothing to barter with so will take the first opportunity, no matter how crap, because if you don't someone else will. This is (one of the many) problems with capitalism, but you know that.

I think you'll find the move towards conservatism happens far earlier than could be accounted for by cognitive decline but thanks for making me spit coffee on my screen with the laugh you gave me.

I've heard it all now, you have to have dementia to see the flaws in socialism 🤣🤣🤣

Tbf it was a bit tongue in cheek but i'm glad i made you laugh in this rather grim world atm.

But my main point on what the older generation claim is undeniable plus they (generally speaking) had plenty of "Socialist" freebies throughout their younger lives....

Free FE and HE education, Available NHS Dental Care, Plentiful Council Housing, access to Final Salary pensions, lower state retirement age....

Yet despite this, have then voted to remove all from the younger generation.... must be Cognitive decline... which if research is to be believed, starts for many in their 50s and 60s....

The rise of the modern day prole (to sort of quote Orwell) happened under Thatcher. And some may think that good and some may not.

Are you really a teacher out of interest? I'm always interested whether teachers with your views can keep them out of the classroom? That's an actual question by the way. I had a teacher that definitely didn't but her views were the opposite of yours.

You are absolutely right for once. We were spending the remaining wealth from Empire and using the peace dividend. But mainly borrowing from our children's future. Now things are coming home to roost (chickens, probably).

Final salary pension schemes for private industry were a product of capitalism. The last straw for final salary pension schemes was a tax raid made by Gordon Brown, removing tax credit on dividends from pension funds, removing £5 billion a year, every year, and the cumulative interest on the each successive year from when it was removed.

Gordon Brown ruined final salary pensions to grab money to pay for his socialist aspirations.

My generation had it all. I'm not sure you will believe me but I apologise to my younger friends that we took it all. We were offered your money by people of both political parties who were happy to borrow from the future to pay for vote winning things. In our defence I would say we had little choice in that, but I wish it hadn't happened.

I think the main problem is that the population has increased quickly and the supply cant keep up with the demand.

If you think there weren't proles long before Thatcher you aren't studying enough history or reading enough older fiction.

Have you not heard of the expression "The rise of the modern day prole"? I suspect it may he you that needs to read a little wider.

Mainly Thatcher's creation lifting the working class up to the middle classes via house ownership and share ownership (I have no view to give on the merits). Obviously it eventually led to far too many people on the sunloungers round Europe and RyanAir but there you go.

That too. Agree.

We still think we are a rich nation and that we can support the lives of millions of non workers with taxpayers largesse. Whereas unfortunately we are rapidly slipping down the ranks.

@Alexandra2001 I’m 70 and I cannot remember plentiful council housing. Not around here - maybe in cities? However the older generation don’t recognise how difficult it is for younger people and are often selfish. We have had successive governments who have pandered to the grey vote (triple lock pensions for example) and it’s not sustainable. We are going to have to dig deep for defence spending and not welfare now.

We are still a rich nation. In real terms, GDP per capita is the same as in 2008 and roughly twice what it was in the 1980s. We have stagnated but we have not got poorer.

In terms of falling down the ranks, most economists agree that the main drivers of this are low investment and brexit. Comparable countries that have overtaken us include much of Northern Europe, most of these countries have a higher tax burden and better investment

If the typical person feels poorer than they did 20 years ago that is due to rising inequality. The pot of money is the same but it is now distributed differently. Moreover, high inequality pushes up asset prices, especially housing. Ordinary people in the UK now spend an enormous proportion of their income on housing, especially if they are trapped renting. This makes ordinary people poorer and is recognised as a huge drag on growth.

According to the IMF, we are 10 per cent poorer than Germany, 20 per cent poorer than Australia, about 40 per cent poorer than America or Singapore. Poland is about to overtake us.

And yet we financially support large numbers of unproductive people coming in or who have come in to the country and send vast sums to other countries, often ones that are doing pretty well. Inequality will only increase given the increasing numbers of those on benefits and the overall low wages of those immigrants that came in via the Boris wave.

"And yet we financially support large numbers of unproductive people coming in or who have come in to the country and send vast sums to other countries, often ones that are doing pretty well. Inequality will only increase given the increasing numbers of those on benefits and the overall low wages of those immigrants that came in via the Boris wave."

That's just not true though is it. The main drivers of inequality are widely agreed to be things like capital income, housing costs and wage stagnation. Immigrants are typically net contributors and we spend a tiny and decreasing proportion of GDP on foreign aid, in exchange for a lot of soft power internationally.

Doesn't matter if we have the same amount of money because everything costs so much more money.

Damned with faint praise there!

I'm always right, just as you're always wrong!