“Tax the wealthy” (RR budget) what does this even mean?

[gggddjkki]

I don’t remember anxiously waiting for budgets like we have the last few years earlier on in my adulthood. But when you read statements like this (as I have seen in the headlines today) what do you interpret it to mean? What does taxing the wealthy look like to you? Taxing higher earners more? From what point? Higher taxes on industry?

You seem to be missing the first part of the post, which clearly stated that there are a number of different factors why (in my opinion - which is what I was asked for by another poster and to which the post was a response) I can imagine many people might be considering voting for Reform. I was asked, so I listed them out.

I also specifically stated at the start of the post that obviously not all of these factors will apply to all people considering voting for them, because there will be a wide range of reasons that aren’t applicable to all. This is the complete opposite of implying all people considering voting for them are a homogenous group with the same motivations.

I did not claim that this list of factors was exhaustive, given that I cannot read the minds of millions of people who are apparently considering voting for them. Merely that in my opinion - which the poster I was responding to had asked for - I think these factors may be responsible for a lot of the recent increase.

When you replied and stated none of the reasons I had listed applied to you but you were considering voting for them, I replied very politely, genuinely asking why and how you thought this would improve things because I wanted to understand your point of view.

I really don’t appreciate my comments being misrepresented in this manner. It’s very disingenuous and not conducive to any constructive discussion. I haven’t insulted anybody or called them a “racist” or “stupid”. In these conversations people always say that others should engage with them and understand their point of view and then when somebody tries to do so, ironically, it is met with them being insulted by Reform voters.

Well, we can all easily read your 10 points and judge for ourselves.

Nobody called a teacher an economist.

I am not a teacher. How many times do you need to be told this?

The opposite happened: you called an economist a teacher.

Again: I have not called Reform voters racist or stupid.

You are the person who has attempted to be insulting and belittle someone else because you don’t agree with them. On the other hand, I’ve said nothing personal about you whatsoever.

Edit: except noting your apparent inability to understand words, but that’s not intended as an insult, rather just bemusement at the objective reality evidenced in the posts that you somehow manage to misunderstand even clear answers like “no”.

Quite happy for you to do so, providing you and other posters stop taking specific sentences of it out of the context that was set out at the start of the list which clearly stated explicitly that I was not stating that these factors apply to everyone.

It’s sad to be honest that I needed to state that when it should be obvious, but I did so to avoid precisely this kind of pointless conversation pretending I’d called everyone a racist or stupid and make it CRYSTAL CLEAR that I wasn’t doing so. Yet here we are, anyway.

Here's your original.10 point post which might be helpful to have handy as we are discussing it.

I'm not sure how objective it is and perhaps you got a little carried away with the language.

Do retract anything you now no longer stand by.

So why take the gun off them and shoot yourself in the temple?

At least half your points imply that Reform voters are stupid for a start.

I don't think I'd ever be brave enough to make such a list about Labour voters!

Is there a particular reason you keep suggesting this poster is a teacher? Is it an attempt to belittle teachers or because you just don’t understand that economist is a separate job? It is very weird.

I stand by it all. You might not like my way of expressing things, but as a list of factors for why many people are now considering voting Reform, it is my opinion (with the caveat stated at the start of the list that OBVIOUSLY NOT ALL OF THESE WILL APPLY TO ALL REFORM VOTERS because we’re talking about millions of different people with different motivations) that these are some of the main drivers for why their support has been growing.

I also expressed interest at hearing any other reasons other people are considering doing so because the list was a response to another poster asking for my OPINION on why Reform is getting more support in political polls than previously, and I am not someone who would ever consider voting for such economically incompetent charlatans, so all I can do is base it on opinions that have been given by Reform voters and documented in research, or stated publicly by them in the media, or stated to me personally by people I know.

I was hoping that some rational reasons that aren’t in the list might be provided and to have an objective and factual discussion about it to understand better anything I am missing. If you would like to add to the list and state other reasons, as I said to you earlier, I would be very interested to hear them, particularly in the context of how you believe they will help the UK’s economic situation/ living standards/ options for fiscal policy, which is the subject of the thread.

I do think half the trouble in politics these days is a lack of civility in politics. I think I've mentioned it before, perhaps not on this thread so apologies if I have. People cannot argue a point without insulting the intelligence of the people that disagree with them. It's a shame. And your 10 points are actually worded rather rudely. And the fact that you stand by them all means unfortunately that you intended to be rude. Which is a shame as it detracts from your argument.

The argument for voting reform which appears most often in the FT is that they will upend the entire welfare state - their economic plans are so incredible that the bond markets will pull the plug and the Uk will have a Greece moment. The economic disaster will be worth it for the shirkers to get their comeuppance. I think it is likely to be a bumpy few years whatever happens.

I think a similar list could be made for many of the motivations of Labour voters.

I haven’t said anybody is stupid. You are perhaps mistaking my comment about poor economic understanding (which is about knowledge and in my opinion a key failing of our education system) and - in many cases poor numeracy as the data about UK school leavers shows - for a comment on people’s intelligence or intellectual ability which is largely innate. It wasn’t - I said nothing whatsoever about people’s intelligence.

My comments were about poor knowledge and therefore being unable to make rational assessments of what the significant matters are from an economic perspective and distinguish between things which are a (deliberate) distraction and those which will actually make a meaningful difference to the public finances and therefore productivity, growth and living standards. I also commented about people’s frustration with the ongoing mismanagement for decades now and said this was understandable.

Not being numerate or having been taught the basics of economics (not covered by the national curriculum) makes the electorate easier to manipulate. This is not calling the electorate “stupid”. Intelligence and knowledge are not the same. I was pointing out a failure (in my opinion, a very deliberate one) in the education system.

Again, meanings being assigned to words by you and other posters which are not what they actually say. If I wanted to say all Reform voters were racist and stupid then that’s what I’d have said. It wasn’t, so I didn’t. My words mean what they actually state.

I would encourage all Reform voters who react like this to any discussion on politics to examine their behaviour because this shows the complete hypocrisy of the usual “insulting people won’t persuade them”, “people need to engage and understand each other’s point of view”. Yet even when asked for theirs and someone trying to engage with them, it’s met with a barrage of insults and attempts to twist their comments and pretend they mean something else. It’s too exhausting so no wonder people give up.

If you actually want to discuss the things that are bothering you about the country and ways that people could come together behind a policy program that wasn’t divisive and had majority support that might actually improve things, then a change of approach on your part is needed, not just from those who actually do insult you for your views. Not everyone is the enemy and if you treat them as such with this kind of adversarial and aggressive approach then quite clearly nothing will improve. It’s much too tiresome to try to have rational conversations with people if they absolutely refuse to do so and wilfully misrepresent everything you say, so people won’t bother to engage with you if you continue to do this.

Yes, it’s quite clear you aren’t following. I give up. I did try my best.

You can lead a horse to water...

Yes, I think there’s a big risk of this, particularly because of the scapegoating of benefits now as a distraction, as though everything will be fine if this issue is fixed. It certainly needs a lot of change, but ironically as I pointed out earlier if Reform are elected and cause the huge economic crash that their policy program will make inevitable and when the bond markets do pull the plug, the first welfare to be cut drastically will be the state pension because it’s by far the most expensive and poorly targeted and many of their voters are pensioners!

The FT is one of the few newspapers in the UK left where there is largely sensible, factual analysis of the situation.

Indeed! 😆

You have a really weird obsession with teachers, don’t you? What’s that all about?

For the fourth (I think?) time: I am not a teacher. Whatever your weird problem with teachers is, it has nothing to do with me.

As much as I hate to say it, I think that NI should continue in that situation.

I’ve already covered that in my earlier posts, if you read them…

Why have you made multiple posts about this then, even responding to me telling you that I am not a teacher but an economist by asking me if I’m an economics teacher. Bizarre. And then further posts still going on about it.

Why would anybody be ashamed of being a teacher? What an odd comment. And quite obviously I am not ashamed of being a teacher even if it was somehow shameful, given that - as you’ve been told multiple times now - I am not a teacher.

I’m sorry that you think my description of my job is vague. I’m not going to disclose all of my personal details to you, a random and seemingly slightly unhinged poster on the internet. I’m not even sure why you were asking about my job to begin with or why you were making what seemed to be an attempt to make a derogatory comment about teachers as though this would be an insult. The fact remains, however, that I’m not a teacher, so whatever your obsession with them stems from I’m afraid I’m unable to help and I can’t see how your obsession with teachers is relevant to the thread.

And no, before you come up with more weird conspiracy theories, I do not and have not ever worked in education.

I work in finance, and have done throughout my career.

HTH.

Like I said, I’m aware you claim not to be a teacher.