Why would anyone think 16 year-olds should be allowed to vote?

[MsAmerica]

Be honest - think back to when you were 16. Did you have an understanding of a broad range of issues? Did you pay serious attention to national news? Okay, even many adults may lapse on the score, but still, it seems crazy to me.

In the U.S., voting age had been 21 and the only reason it was lowered to 18 was that teens were being drafted to fight in Vietnam, and it was felt as unfair for them to have no say.

Nobody has said it's on course to just about break even. To break even about a quarter of private school pupils would have to join the state sector.

Its widely accepted that a 10% pupil move to state is the threshold that the tax becomes a cost to the treasury.

By whom? It has been widely reported that the number is roughly 1.9%, about 11,000 pupils. Even the Daily Mail has admitted this!

Over 11,000 fewer pupils at private school this year - BBC News
Private school pupil numbers plummet after Labour’s VAT raid
Private school pupil numbers dip by 11,000 after VAT hike - but Labour STILL claims controversial tax isn't causing exodus | Daily Mail Online

@windyfarmers That’s data from January(mid school year) and was 300% above Labours ‘estimate’ of 3000. I was assuming when you said this year you meant fiscal years as you said 2024/2025 and 2025/2026.

This has been done to death and pointless continuing, this derails every thread about Labour's other failures. You have your education tax now and you will support it no matter the consequences for children, people’s jobs, schools or the treasury. It’s ideological and if you don’t follow that ideology then there’s basic envy and resentment to be stirred up to motivate you.

So it s just your opinion, nothing more.

No data to back up what you "believe" much like your nonsense about an "Education Tax...."

You don't know why there are allegedly 11k less pupils in the private sector, you ve just made the assumption its all to do with VAT being applied to 'fees.

And the queue of indoctrinated teens and dead people at the voting booth.

Seriously !?!

Why are yoj so surprised? We're providing links. You're just stating your opinion with nothing to back it up.

This is crazy, that’s why I’m surprised. These are entirely obvious things. You think it’s just my opinion the government want to give children the vote in the hopes it might save them a few seats? You think it’s just my opinion that education tax is pricing children into the state schools and causing schools to close? Ok.

https://schoolsweek.co.uk/is-vat-on-fees-really-to-blame-for-private-school-closures/

It's education fees that is pricing children into state schools.

Well, yes. Because data and analysis which is easily found online doesn't support your statements. You fail to back up what you are saying with any kind of evidence, whilst we have posted links to support what we are saying. Everything you say is therefore baseless, unless you do better. Opinion doesn't Trump information.

If you re going to come out with statements like "...its obvious Labour are doing this to save a few seats...."

Then back it up?

If you cannot, its just an opinion.

You have no idea how todays 12/13yo's are going to vote, if indeed they even do, in 4 years time.... the political landscape will be very different to what we have now.

Its very possible Reform will sweep the board or they will implode and the Tories regain their former popularity ... or non of this... we just don't know.

You have more patience that I would have engaging with a poster who deliberately omits the word "private" before "education" in order to make their case sound more than it is. That alone should have acted as the metric you sought previously 😀

Anyone can win an argument by changing the subject line.

Do I agree with a tax on education ? No of course I don't.

Do I agree with a tax on private education ? Of course I do.

I’ve always thought that 16 year olds should have the vote. Many are working, some are living on their own and are expecting them to behave like adults. It’s another step in getting them to think for themselves.

Ok, what evidence will satisfy you that education tax is forcing pupils into state schools and closing schools? I suspect nothing will as you are brainwashed. Would a quote from treasury work saying they expect it close 100 schools?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14477347/amp/schools-forced-close-VAT-private-schools.html

analysis from City am

https://www.cityam.com/imposing-vat-on-private-schools-could-be-a-net-cost-for-the-treasury-research-suggests/

https://thecritic.co.uk/the-private-school-exodus-dwarfs-treasury-predictions/

The impact when Greece tried this nonsense:

https://www.schoolmanagementplus.com/heads-governors-school-leadership-governance/what-the-greeks-can-teach-us-about-vat-on-fees/

I doubt I’ll find anything relating to Labour wanting children to vote as they think it help them as it’s entirely f*cking obvious!!!

It was a bubbling under topic when I were growing up ... I think the shadow of the mushroom cloud did power some quite radical thinking in odd ways.

I can't remember it being dismissed with such low energy thinking as now - probably a reflection on the elite nature of mass media back then.

I doubt I’ll find anything relating to Labour wanting children to vote as they think it help them as it’s entirely fcking obvious!!!

Nope, anyone would assume the next GE is tomorrow based on your responses.

You've no idea what todays 12/13yo's will think in 4 years time.

It's a tax on private education only.* *

Omitting that makes you look like someone not posting in good faith.

Re the exodus - I would want to see data from state schools to support they are getting a mass influx of new students, and I would want evidence of causality. Private schools themselves have admitted VAT on fees is only one of several factors involved, as linked previously in this thread.

Links to the Mail will be disregarded.

Of course dead people can vote. The only way to stop dead people voting is to insist that everyone turns up at the polling station on election day. Any system that allows people to vote before an election, such as postal voting, means that inevitably some people will die between casting their vote and election day.
There is no way to retrieve the vote and disregard it if a person should die because the vote is secret.

Jeezus...

That doesn't actually bother me much, and I don't think it's what our resident conspiracy fan is talking about. I mean, by that logic we shouldn't allow people who are terminally ill to vote by post because they might die before polling day. But if we do that, we disenfranchise those who don't die before polling day.

I doubt the numbers are in any way significant anyway.

Conspiracy theory or not, my personal preference would be that in-person voting is very much treated as the default and that postal voting should be treated as that last resort, with proxy voting being the compromise.

I say that as someone who is very - painfully - aware of the challenges some people face in daily life.

I could be persuaded to change my views if someone can demonstrate a postal voting system that is proof against a "person of the house" scenario.

Meanwhile - prompted by this thread and trying (as ever 😀) to educate myself, I have been astounded by the sheer number of "how to grow cannabis" channels (let alone videos) there are on YouTube. I'm sure they would all make sense to some who considers cutting grass the acme of horticulture.

To be clear, someone who dies after submitting a postal vote, was alive when they voted, same as if someone collapses and dies as the leave the 'polling station or is killed in a RTA that day... there is no difference.

... their votes will be counted in exactly the same way.. all were alive when they voted.

How this can be construed as "Dead people voted" is quite frankly beyond stupid.

So you think another 44,000 children have been removed from private school in the past 6 months? You're right, it's pointless continuing when you are using supposition and I'm using the actual facts.

Funny how when anyone points out inequality they're either a hypocrite or envious. Mud slinging is much easier than supporting your argument, huh? Of course it is when you have no evidence to back it up, it's you're only option.