Why would anyone think 16 year-olds should be allowed to vote?

[MsAmerica]

Be honest - think back to when you were 16. Did you have an understanding of a broad range of issues? Did you pay serious attention to national news? Okay, even many adults may lapse on the score, but still, it seems crazy to me.

In the U.S., voting age had been 21 and the only reason it was lowered to 18 was that teens were being drafted to fight in Vietnam, and it was felt as unfair for them to have no say.

And even our antiquated electoral system isn't so flimsy as to have a single vote sway an entire election.

Remember when EU nationals were illegally denied a vote ? If their thousands of votes don't count, a few dead peoples votes surely can't.

I leave it to the class to derive an estimate for number of people who died on polling day the subset thereof that voted and the further subset of those that may conceivably have affected the outcome of an election.

That's keep a few folk busy for a moment or two.

I agree that in-person voting is the only way to ensure we uphold our one-person -one-vote ideal where everyone chooses individually who to vote for.

I didn't say it would significantly affect the result, simply that there was no way to stop it happening when we have a postal vote system. Presumably, what is really being talked about here is fraudulent voting when someone else fills in a postal vote form that has been sent to someone who has already died.
There are ways this can be stopped and those responsible put into gaol, though whether anyone has the political will to enforce the law on this issue is another question entirely.

But we can't have that, because it would disenfranchise the most vulnerable people in our society. We can't have perfection.

Given how much we ask of our democracy, then going to vote once every couple of years is the barest of minimums to ask.

Otherwise the message we send is that we prefer convenience over integrity.

The adage about liberty and eternal vigilance springs to mind.

We can have something that is as close to perfect as possible. What we have at the moment is a travesty that is easily exploited.

Utter bollocks

I'm not at all sure there is enough evidence of large scale election fraud in the UK to warrant draconian measures. However, this is one of the problems that could be addressed by the introduction of an ID card system - along with many others.

The solution implemented by the previous government, which was intended to disenfranchise the young, is not good enough.

ID cards won't prevent abuse of postal votes.

Postal votes should only be for exceptional situations imo, as they used to be. I really don't trust them. It's also not very democratic that postal votes can be sent in much before the end of campaigning.

Thats not dead people voting though is it? its fraud, same as someone turning up with forged or stolen ID and taking someone else's vote.... who really looks like their photo ID and the people checking are hardly the Police are they?

Perhaps registering for a postal vote should be done via the Govt Gateway ID system, would limit mis use?

I'm not in favour of making it more difficult to vote. When I was at uni in the Netherlands, my landlady had a proxy vote because she was very seriously disabled with arthritis - I was her proxy. Technically I could have voted against her wishes - obviously I didn't.

But what solution do those of you who are so anti voting other than in person propose? How do we manage it without disenfranchising people?

No one has suggested stopping postal voting. Just that it not be dished out to all and sundry.

My concern is about enabling abusers.

this sums up my thoughts on the issue!

Who are we kidding here? This is an open opportunity for the far left. Those 16 year old voting in the next elections may regret their choice for years. Most wont remain idealists for long.

Where is your evidence that todays 12 and 13yo's will vote "Far Left" in 4 years time?
The largest youth political movement in the UK is the Young Conservatives.

We have an 18yo Reform Councillor where i live.

The far left? Where does that sit in your mind?

Lots of people remain idealists all their lives. Me included.

Thankyou for your considered contribution to this debate.

There is very little evidence of fraud in in person voting but much more in the postal voting system. ID cards would not improve the postal voting system one iota.

And the measures brought in by the last government wee not intended to disenfranchise the young. They were intended to tackle a perceived problem in the voting system. One that hardly existed at all as I have said. Every new law has unintended consequences which is why we fiddle with our laws at our peril.

It's also not very democratic that postal votes can be sent in much before the end of campaigning.

With the state of the mail system it's pointless doing a postal vote unless you send it at the earliest opportunity

I agree that in-person voting is the only way to ensure we uphold our one-person -one-vote ideal where everyone chooses individually who to vote for.

What is ideal about a system that would prevent the most vulnerable in society from being able to vote?

Didn't I read that the European countries that gave their 16 year olds the vote saw an upsurge in votes for the right and far right.

So Rees-Mogg was lying then when he admitted that was the plan? But then, why did they make it more difficult for everyone but pensioners to vote...? This is why actually typing a reasoned argument with proof to back it up is pointless, people will just keep posting utter bullshit.

They were never exceptional.

I used one in 1979 be about cause I'd moved away from my parent's house where I'd lived when the electoral register was compiled.

The system then was a contradictory mess with a lot of silly and anachronistic judgments about 'good reasons'.

The nonsense now is that you need photo ID at the Poling Place but not for a postal vote.