Election - how soon for VAT on school fees?

[Labtastic]

So I see we're likely to have an election in early July. Obviously that spells the end of the godawful tories which is great, but also hastens the incoming VAT on school fees which, for us, is bad. We are one of those families that no one believes exists who stretch ourselves with school fees, and are going to be very pushed for an extra 20%.

Question is - do we think Labour can make this happen in time for September? It'll be our DC's last year of fee paid education and was hoping the timeline for VAT coming in would be stretched out a bit...

‘Looking at ISC schools alone (which isn’t all private schools), they support around 280,000 jobs. Assuming just 10% are displaced, how is the state sector going to fund 28,000 new jobs?’

the funded vacancies are there - you know that there are almost 1 Million staff in state schools?? Across 22, 000 schools - so in the unlikely even that 10% of staff are let go by private schools, through closure or cost cutting, that’s 1/2 new staff across the state sector…
Our school is currently recruiting 2 teaching posts because of retirement, a Finance officer, and sports coaches for a specific programme because of funding for a sport.

Thats just one school.

Priv schools already setting up advance payment scenes to allow parents avoid vat in short term. Smart people doing smart things.

savings acct only gets small % vs vat, makes to pay ahead.

It's not really smart. The Gov will come after the payment for any terms of education that the VAT has been set on, even if paid in advance. This is allowed under tax law.

Yes, smart people indeed. Just like the smart people writing the legislation to close loop holes…

Honestly, this superiority private schools parents seem to feel -
as if state schools are run and staffed by equally educated and intelligent people.
Ih, and qualified too - let’s not forget that. The number of staff in private schools teaching without a teaching qualification because they have the ‘right’ accent, background or connections is astounding.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/article/2024/jun/03/society-is-unequal-but-this-is-regressive-parents-on-private-school-fee-vat-plans-labour

From the government website :

Schools where QTS is not a legal requirement
In some schools in England, QTS is not a legal requirement. For example:

• within the English state school sector, academy schools and free schools can employ teachers without QTS

Those schools account for around 80% of secondary state schools. They can employ those without qualified teacher status in the same way that private schools can. In reality, most private school teachers do have QTS.

Some not all state schools are crap, have experienced absolute idiots at a state school. Another quite good.

The idiot school a shameful embarrassment and the staff all crying about stress simply because they were majority incompetent. . Parents, Myself included reported the shit behavior and the staff mostly escaped unscathed because they falsified records for incidents or went out on stress to avoid situation.

The VAT is not going to correct or improve state schools. Money, alone. Won’t fix the problems.

it’s a vote grab
Wake up.

‘it’s a vote grab
Wake up.’

Is it though? It’s not going to be the thing that sways most voters - unless you are a private school parent, but I doh t many of them vote Labour anyway.

If Labour announced they were NOT stopping this tax dodge it wouldn’t change how I voted, and I feel really strongly about it - in fact I’m fairly pissed off about them NOT saying they’ll do something about the false charity status that so many of these private schools have.

If the choice was between get rid of charity status or add VAT, I’d vote for private schools losing charity status.

.

My daughter goes to an independent school. I had no idea her fees would have VAT added to them as I never knew about any tax status in the first and I'm by no means a stupid person. University fees are VAT exempt so why arent Labour adding VAT to them? University is optional. Because there would be a public outcry. As for the laughable view that if parents can afford school fees then they can afford another 20%. Like saying if you can afford your grocery shop then you can afford another 20% on that. It's bizarre people feel they can opine on other's finances.

@gnatschuffs what sort of person must you be to post that in response to the OP@Labtastic . Grotesque is the answer.

OP they may not even implement it at all and if they do it’s unlikely to all be passed by September

There is no need for your school to add 20% to its fees if students ca n t afford it.They can always cur their costs, you know, like state schools have had to for t he last decade.

Incorrect. The school aren't applying VAT, the government ie the law, is. Schools have to invoice the full 20%. Where they can make cuts is the annual fee rise however this impacts on staff wages/pensions etc. Most independent schools aren't the big, well endowed public schools of Eton et al, they dont have a big surplus to fall back on. The biggest cost is teachers/staff and the support staff will be the first ones to go.
Most independents are big employers for the local communities (ours is the biggest employer in a rural town with very limited job opportunities) so if the school cut staff then it is local people who suffer.
Stop listening to Labour soundbites and straplines, this is an incredibly complex sector.

Whst do you mean 'incorrect' , you don't know what you are talking about!
The school will absolutely be required to apply vat to their bills. government arent going to invoice the parents directly are they, you muppet ???
Obviously then the school complete a vat return and make the appropriate payment but that isn't anything to do with this.

You are correct in saying that the staff budget is a large part of school expenditure.The private school could kerp the fees the same by cutting the staff budget by the vat amount, and hence increase their class sizes .The vat paid over can be used to increase the staffing in state schools , where the displaced private school staff can find work.

Ideology at its best to add to the sheer rudeness in addressing a disagreement!

The point she was going to make is the entire 20% goes directly to the government - the school can’t put 15% on an invoice and pay 5%.

The sad thing about your ideology is that the schools which can afford to absorb some of the costs won’t need to - they have children of extremely wealthy parents who will just suck up the cost and to add to that, they will claim VAT back on all their fancy building projects and other expenses.

Other schools like the one my DC go to are quite literally cut to the bone - class sizes are already greater than most of the private sector which has allowed the comparatively lower fees. They don’t have fancy buildings and they operate with minimal staff. Recent CoL (especially energy increases) has hit them hard and they’re making very careful decisions to stay afloat without losing parents. The majority of parents who send their children there do so for the comprehensive wraparound and specialist teaching. Lots of medical families like us because of lack of state schools with reliable wraparound in the area. Remove the specialist teachers or increase class sizes and you are getting the state education which we may as well take with one of us working drastically fewer hours. This is the reality of private education for many rather than the fancy facilities and leg up that people have in their heads. Sadly I can’t see the school surviving for more than 5 years after this policy comes in. I can also guarantee most of the staff won’t be touching the state sector with a barge pole - they left it due to stress and mismanagement and would never return.

@ageratum1
Except for it doesn't work like this.
If you have two classes and one specialist math teacher, then pushing kids in one class doesn't remove the need for this teacher.

If you have two primary classes of 15-20 kids, you can't squeeze them in one class of 30-40 to release one teacher and one TA - parents won't pay for this.

And shock horror - a lot of teachers won't move from indies to state, def not in sink ones. They will do tutoring, supporting the same families who pay for PS now

Many current teachers in indi schools have come from the state sector for a reason. Some may choose to move back but the majority won't.

You were incorrect. You stated “There is no need for your school to add 20% to its fees if students ca n t afford it.” This is factually incorrect. Schools will have to add 20% to their fees. The only way to reduce the burden on parents is to reduce their base fee level somehow. There is no need to call someone a “muppet” for pointing out factual inaccuracies.

My sons, indi SEN school has confirmed that they are expecting they will not be VAT exempt. The kids with ehcps,will be exempt but the privately funded pupils won't be. So if their parents can't pay the VAT undoubtedly some will go back into mainstream state. A lot had already been excluded. All of them was at the end of the mainstream line. You can not get into a state sen school without a ehcp.

If your rubbing your hands in glee, you might not be when there is a influx of SEN kids with very complex needs popping up in your kids class.

With the sen safety valve this is going to blow up in every school in the next two years. You reap what you sow. You want everyone on level playing field. Everyone lumped in together, the rich posh kids and the complex sen pupils all getting on in a class of 30+. Progress, lovely.

Rachel Reeves said at the Times summit the week before last that the VAT will not be added until September 2025.

They need to give long enough for parents who wish to change schools, to give notice to quit without penalty. And the standard notice period of one full term (not equivalent number of weeks, but an actual term) is very well known.

So assuming a win later this week, with the summer recess following shortly after, it's unlikely this would be drawn up before the autumn. So I think the earliest this could come in, allowing for notice-to-quit period would be autumn announcement for effect wef summer term 2025. But I think it's tidier to do it on the school year, so Sept 2025 seems pretty likely to me.

It's more about how soon they can get legislation through and schools registered for vat than your notice to quit.
RR said asap,but nor backdated.A budget takes 10 weeks so January 2025 will be the earliest.

Everyone keeps saying fees have increased more than inflation but I am not sure they have (or at least by as much). Does anyone have actual stats? I am using an old times article from 2003 and an online inflation calculator!