Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Politics

Election - how soon for VAT on school fees?

502 replies

Labtastic · 22/05/2024 16:27

So I see we're likely to have an election in early July. Obviously that spells the end of the godawful tories which is great, but also hastens the incoming VAT on school fees which, for us, is bad. We are one of those families that no one believes exists who stretch ourselves with school fees, and are going to be very pushed for an extra 20%.

Question is - do we think Labour can make this happen in time for September? It'll be our DC's last year of fee paid education and was hoping the timeline for VAT coming in would be stretched out a bit...

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
Sunnyandsilly · 24/05/2024 17:02

I’d not worry, starmer is backing out of nearly all of his pledges and it hugely looks like vat will be kicked in the long grass never to surface. It’s like tuition fees and everting else he promised, it is a no go.

twistyizzy · 24/05/2024 17:06

Sunnyandsilly · 24/05/2024 17:02

I’d not worry, starmer is backing out of nearly all of his pledges and it hugely looks like vat will be kicked in the long grass never to surface. It’s like tuition fees and everting else he promised, it is a no go.

It was certainly an interesting interview this morning on R4 and he definitely obfuscated his way around VAT question.

Another76543 · 24/05/2024 20:06

twistyizzy · 24/05/2024 17:06

It was certainly an interesting interview this morning on R4 and he definitely obfuscated his way around VAT question.

The FT are reporting this (I haven’t heard the interview)

Election - how soon for VAT on school fees?
twistyizzy · 24/05/2024 20:09

Another76543 · 24/05/2024 20:06

The FT are reporting this (I haven’t heard the interview)

Note the use of "intended" and "timetable in parliament". He also said "will depend on when the money is there".
He refused to give a deadline or whether it would be in the first year.

I know he chose his words carefully to avoid comeback but still it seems incredibly vague for someone hoping to win an election

Another76543 · 24/05/2024 20:10

twistyizzy · 24/05/2024 20:09

Note the use of "intended" and "timetable in parliament". He also said "will depend on when the money is there".
He refused to give a deadline or whether it would be in the first year.

I know he chose his words carefully to avoid comeback but still it seems incredibly vague for someone hoping to win an election

Edited

Interesting. What did he mean by “when the money is there”? He thinks it will raise money….

ForlornLindtBear · 24/05/2024 20:28

twistyizzy · 24/05/2024 20:09

Note the use of "intended" and "timetable in parliament". He also said "will depend on when the money is there".
He refused to give a deadline or whether it would be in the first year.

I know he chose his words carefully to avoid comeback but still it seems incredibly vague for someone hoping to win an election

Edited

Agree, he is not actually committing to anything. My DH is a barrister and that's how he talks when he doesn't want to answer my questions directly.

twistyizzy · 24/05/2024 20:34

Another76543 · 24/05/2024 20:10

Interesting. What did he mean by “when the money is there”? He thinks it will raise money….

My gut feeling is that he is preparing the ground knowing it will take time to go through parliament ie potential legal challenges etc. Does he also think it won't happen or there will be a compromise to reach??
Obviously I have skin in the game so yes maybe I'm clutching at straws but this definitely wasn't a war cry for the policy.

ForlornLindtBear · 24/05/2024 21:05

He's definitely not hanging his hat on it. It sounds like he is giving himself plenty of leeway for at least watering it down or stretching it out significantly.

Wewelcomeyourfeedback · 25/05/2024 08:34

twistyizzy · 24/05/2024 16:45

There are lots of things going on behind the scenes but we need every parent who is worried about this to do the following:

  • write to your MP. ENT group have exemplar letters
  • sign the petition

I’m not sure that private school parents petitioning not to be fairly taxed is going to have any affect I’m afraid…
As for the rest of us - no-one believe the scaremongering around state schools being flooded with posh kids, we all know that won’t happen. And we all know that there are plenty of school places - just perhaps not in the schools private parents would choose.

In other words - good luck , and if you don’t manage to avoid paying fair taxes then I’m sure you money will find other solutions for you

ToeIssues81 · 25/05/2024 08:37

Wewelcomeyourfeedback · 25/05/2024 08:34

I’m not sure that private school parents petitioning not to be fairly taxed is going to have any affect I’m afraid…
As for the rest of us - no-one believe the scaremongering around state schools being flooded with posh kids, we all know that won’t happen. And we all know that there are plenty of school places - just perhaps not in the schools private parents would choose.

In other words - good luck , and if you don’t manage to avoid paying fair taxes then I’m sure you money will find other solutions for you

@Wewelcomeyourfeedback does it not concern you that this policy will cost MORE than it will raise? Therefore impacting the country NEGATIVELY?

twistyizzy · 25/05/2024 08:42

Wewelcomeyourfeedback · 25/05/2024 08:34

I’m not sure that private school parents petitioning not to be fairly taxed is going to have any affect I’m afraid…
As for the rest of us - no-one believe the scaremongering around state schools being flooded with posh kids, we all know that won’t happen. And we all know that there are plenty of school places - just perhaps not in the schools private parents would choose.

In other words - good luck , and if you don’t manage to avoid paying fair taxes then I’m sure you money will find other solutions for you

We already pay our taxes thank you (DH pays higher rate) and are net contractors. Paying for private schools saves the state money every year on top of the taxes we pay.
Taxing education is illegal in the EU for a reason.

I love many posters on MN comment that private parents coming into the state sector will drive up standards because of sharp elbows etc yet there is doubt in our ability to fight against this. We aren't fighting about excusing ourselves from paying income tax, we are fighting an ill thought out policy which will have repercussions for the state sector and whereby the economics just don't stack up.

You tone is obvious: "posh kids" ie lumping all private DC as 1 homogenous group. How would you feel if I applied the same reverse stereotypes to state schools kids and called them all chavs?

Abby00079 · 25/05/2024 08:43

Wewelcomeyourfeedback · 25/05/2024 08:34

I’m not sure that private school parents petitioning not to be fairly taxed is going to have any affect I’m afraid…
As for the rest of us - no-one believe the scaremongering around state schools being flooded with posh kids, we all know that won’t happen. And we all know that there are plenty of school places - just perhaps not in the schools private parents would choose.

In other words - good luck , and if you don’t manage to avoid paying fair taxes then I’m sure you money will find other solutions for you

What a bitter ill-informed response!

twistyizzy · 25/05/2024 08:43

ToeIssues81 · 25/05/2024 08:37

@Wewelcomeyourfeedback does it not concern you that this policy will cost MORE than it will raise? Therefore impacting the country NEGATIVELY?

No they don't because it is just a reason to bring down "posh" kids + parents.

RedToothBrush · 25/05/2024 08:57

twistyizzy · 24/05/2024 20:09

Note the use of "intended" and "timetable in parliament". He also said "will depend on when the money is there".
He refused to give a deadline or whether it would be in the first year.

I know he chose his words carefully to avoid comeback but still it seems incredibly vague for someone hoping to win an election

Edited

2026 earliest as I said upthread is a realistic timeframe.

twistyizzy · 25/05/2024 09:01

RedToothBrush · 25/05/2024 08:57

2026 earliest as I said upthread is a realistic timeframe.

Sorry I didn't see your previous post but yes as he definitely avoided the question about whether he could bring it in within the first year would suggest 2026.
Very different language from Starmer compared to Raynor!

twistyizzy · 25/05/2024 09:23

Wewelcomeyourfeedback · 25/05/2024 08:34

I’m not sure that private school parents petitioning not to be fairly taxed is going to have any affect I’m afraid…
As for the rest of us - no-one believe the scaremongering around state schools being flooded with posh kids, we all know that won’t happen. And we all know that there are plenty of school places - just perhaps not in the schools private parents would choose.

In other words - good luck , and if you don’t manage to avoid paying fair taxes then I’m sure you money will find other solutions for you

At least you are now moderating your language and have moved on from "Privately educated, privileged sociopaths" or "shall I show you my whole field of fucks I don't give"
So that shows personal growth in debates at least.

RedToothBrush · 25/05/2024 09:32

I'm up north and it's slightly different here but in terms of who goes to private school it is interesting.

I live near a reasonable high school and grammar schools.

The 'posh' parents tend to pay to have their kids coached / move house to get into catchment of the grammars to get the better chance of getting in.

The kids at private school are a mix of the ultra wealthy, the gifted but 'poor' who have got a part scholarship after the state education failing them led their parents to seek out other options and the kids who have additional sen needs who the state education totally neglected and have been left to rot leaving their parents in a state of panic about how far behind their kid is.

The vast majority I know locally fall into the category of having been failed by state education. These are middle class families but I wouldn't say they were posh at all. Far from it.

I think my problem here is that we are really addressing or acknowledging WHY there is such demand for private school places, particularly in certain areas of the country.

Historically my area has had particularly low funding per pupil in schools. It's amongst one of the lowest in the country and has been for years. Instead with a drive for inclusion and COVID causing massive delays to assessment it's just hit crisis after crisis. Low funding generally in well off areas might not be such an issue to schools if there were prompt and decent funding for pupils with additional needs. It's the SEN issues that are the problem here.

Middle class parents perhaps have the option to buy their way out of that lack of support and provision. Why is the ethos to race to the bottom and make middle class kids suffer with the rest of us rather than acknowledge where the actual issue is.

This is essentially a 'red meat' policy akin to one the Tory's have about immigration rather than really talking about why it's been happening.

And in this sense, just getting a bunch of tax isn't going to solve anything. Firstly the money is going to go into a pit of tax and secondly the money out to education will be a pittance in comparison because the issue that Labour aren't talking about in the same loud voice is SEN issues. Because they know the problem is just so chronic.

The government would almost be better to work with the private sector to build more provision for SEN kids with the long term goal of having new units state run but initially having more places available for poorer kids separate from mainstream education. Don't tax - require more assisted places. Then have an actual plan to have more Specialist units for children who have SEN but aren't pretty much not verbal (as that seems to be the only kids who get special schools now) and more specialist behavioural units for kids who don't just have sen issues but also have more complex behavioural issues too (and should be kept separate from particularly vulnerable kids who have SEN issues but not the same concerning behaviours).

Inclusion just doesn't work. It's fuelling anti-social behaviour (which is one of the other big drivers of middle class parents wanting to go private) and failing all kids with SEN needs.

No one is willing to say this. Teacher retention in state education owes a lot to the expectations placed on teachers around inclusion and having to be social workers in addition to their teaching. It's not realistic to be trying to teach a child who can't write at all at age 9 in the same class as one who is reading the likes of Harry Potter and writing their own little fantasy books for fun. It's just stupid. It's not helping anyone. Even the kids in the middle who education is pitched to at that particular age, suffer because of the frustration and boredom that it's creating and manifesting in behaviour problems.

I fail to see how just saying we are going to tax private school is going to achieve better education for all, if you aren't pushing that part of the narrative far harder than the headline grabbing populism of taxing private schools.

This is a push / pull issue. Make it more attractive for parents to not send their kids to private school in the first place. There are other ways to do this apart from taxing private schools directly.

FiveFoxes · 25/05/2024 23:23

VAT or National Service? Even with the (extra) struggle I'd choose the VAT.

Sunnyandsilly · 26/05/2024 06:56

FiveFoxes · 25/05/2024 23:23

VAT or National Service? Even with the (extra) struggle I'd choose the VAT.

It’s a weekend a month, and can be with any armed force or the police. I don’t think it’s a bad idea to have 18 year olds do this, but on first reading it feels shocking, but when you think about it, it is teaching them responsibility and giving them structure.

Wewelcomeyourfeedback · 26/05/2024 09:20

Sunnyandsilly · 26/05/2024 06:56

It’s a weekend a month, and can be with any armed force or the police. I don’t think it’s a bad idea to have 18 year olds do this, but on first reading it feels shocking, but when you think about it, it is teaching them responsibility and giving them structure.

I’d rather my 18 year old make their own choices, preparing for Uni or FE or something else.
Smacks of desperation, and I’m fairly sure the usual rules will apply when it come to roles, posh kids getting exemptions or being allowed to ‘volunteer’ in cushy jobs via their parents connections, poorer kids shovelling shit in the army.

RespiceFinemKarma · 26/05/2024 23:06

Well Starmer himself was privately educated and Oxford trained. Seems he wants to pull up the bridge behind him just to disrupt families who are struggling to invest in their kids education. Bet he wouldn't be planning it if his son wasn't in a London Grammar or he had to live rurally near a poor performing secondary.

FiveFoxes · 27/05/2024 08:42

RespiceFinemKarma · 26/05/2024 23:06

Well Starmer himself was privately educated and Oxford trained. Seems he wants to pull up the bridge behind him just to disrupt families who are struggling to invest in their kids education. Bet he wouldn't be planning it if his son wasn't in a London Grammar or he had to live rurally near a poor performing secondary.

TBF, he went to a Grammar when it was converted to private and stayed for free to finish his education.

But I agree with your sentiments that not all State Schools are equal and Stamer wouldn't send his children to a school where children were physically fighting with each other on open day and shouting abuse at parents, which is what my choice was.

However, I'd still rather scrimp and save even more to pay VAT than have National Service reintroduced.

RespiceFinemKarma · 27/05/2024 08:48

For me it means £10k a year more as dd boards so I can work. It simply isn't doable. Silly me for thinking I could show her what a successful single mum parenting looked like!

Alexandra2001 · 27/05/2024 10:38

Sunnyandsilly · 26/05/2024 06:56

It’s a weekend a month, and can be with any armed force or the police. I don’t think it’s a bad idea to have 18 year olds do this, but on first reading it feels shocking, but when you think about it, it is teaching them responsibility and giving them structure.

How is it giving them them anymore structure than studying for GCSE's or A Levels or going to Uni, doing an NHS placement?

...and what about those already doing air cadets? placements, working to help with tuition fees? or haven's forbid, a child or caring responsibilities?

Really pisses me off that older people think so little of young people.

Alexandra2001 · 27/05/2024 10:40

RespiceFinemKarma · 27/05/2024 08:48

For me it means £10k a year more as dd boards so I can work. It simply isn't doable. Silly me for thinking I could show her what a successful single mum parenting looked like!

How is outsourcing your children for someone else to bring up "Successful parenting" ?

You re not being the parent.