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Politics

Uk totally messed up - is anything good?

140 replies

tallcurvey · 07/02/2024 06:31

The UK is an utter mess.
i can’t think of a single thing that is better than a decade ago.

when will people wake up and see brexit and the current government have ruined the country?

is their anything that’s better?

OP posts:
Scalby · 07/02/2024 10:26

It sounds like the South is beginning to feel what it's been like to live in the North for a very long time...

AndThatWasNY · 07/02/2024 10:27

Dapbag · 07/02/2024 10:06

Can someone clever perhaps explain something to me?

Why, when the government wants to reduce inflation, do they increase interest rates rather than raising taxes?

To my (potentially dim and certainly uninformed mind) increasing tax could take the same amount of money from people's pockets, thus reducing inflation, but would put money into the public purse to pay for the services we so desperately need. Increased public services would provide employment, more people would be earning and paying more tax. Is that not better?

Am I wrong or should I be Chancellor of the Exchequer?

The Tories would never do this because raising taxes would take more from the rich than it would from the less well off. They do everything they can to protect the better off.

Inflation on the other hand ensures that those with money still can get a nice rise on there savings, house prices can continue to rise and the stuff that they sell will still make them money.

beguilingeyes · 07/02/2024 10:28

Tony Blair wasn't wrong when he said Education, Education, Education was he? But maybe not in the way that he meant it. Are we (the general population) supposed to be less educated now? Sources of information seem to be so dumbed down. Politics has been reduced to stupid three word slogans and shock tactics instead of anything being debated or explained properly. Brexit being a prime example. Almost nobody was informed enough to vote on such a cataclysmic change.
Rishi Sunak was prompted to agree with Piers Morgan that Keir Starmer is a 'terrorist sympathiser' during that interview yesterday. Is that where we are now?

MrsSkylerWhite · 07/02/2024 10:29

Lots of people do realise. It’s very difficult to admit they were fooled though.

User135644 · 07/02/2024 10:35

We love our Tories too much in the UK.

Labour's turn for a bit now though and they haven't got many answers.

Sourisblanche · 07/02/2024 10:37

No investment and no growth in the last 15 years.

I agree with pp that it started with George Osbourne and his austerity but I think you can go further back to privatisation. That was the turning point in ‘modern’ politics, selling housing/water/transport for profit.

Thoroughly depressing and yet the media is obsessed by King Charles (yes I wish him well).

FreeZor · 07/02/2024 10:37

Dapbag · 07/02/2024 10:06

Can someone clever perhaps explain something to me?

Why, when the government wants to reduce inflation, do they increase interest rates rather than raising taxes?

To my (potentially dim and certainly uninformed mind) increasing tax could take the same amount of money from people's pockets, thus reducing inflation, but would put money into the public purse to pay for the services we so desperately need. Increased public services would provide employment, more people would be earning and paying more tax. Is that not better?

Am I wrong or should I be Chancellor of the Exchequer?

From an economic perspective it's basically the same thing. The purpose of raising interest rates is to deliberately make everybody poorer and reduce spending power, reduce the money circulating in the economy.

In this particular case you are correct that targeted taxes would have been a far better idea, primarily on the Boomer cohort.

Instead, over recent years, it is income that has been hammered with tax, but only for a specific subset of taxpayers. The self-employed enjoy lower rates and lower earners benefit immensely from the tax free allowance which has doubled in real terms in the last 15 years and is higher than in pretty much any other country. Meanwhile we have higher earning employees on PAYE paying taxes as high as in Scandinavian countries, but receiving appalling services in return. So the rich whose income is mainly from wealth pay very low rates of tax and low to average earners pay nothing/ very little and our tax base has narrowed and become precariously dependent on around 15% of the population, with them paying at only £50k earnings sometimes marginal rates of 85% plus if they have children due to the tax cliff edge with child benefit withdrawal. At £100k earnings the marginal tax rate can go up to thousands of percent. I.e. work and earn more gross and you'll become significantly poorer^^ in net income. Obviously that is insanity if you are desperate for more tax revenue from these skilled and productive workers who you are relying on to fund everyone else. Nobody will work more for free so UK productivity remains dire and skills shortages abound as people cut their hours to avoid being penalised. And the rest of the population won't accept that if they want decent services then the only way these can be funded is by those who earn average incomes paying far more tax than they do now, like in all of the countries whose services they admire. There is no other way to fund it, it's mathematically impossible.

The interest rate hike was an unsuitable way to curb inflation for a number of reasons including that the cohort it hit the hardest were those mentioned above: those already hammered with fiscal drag and tax and childcare and high housing costs. These are the people with large mortgages. But they also tend to use almost all of their money on essentials so cannot really cut their spending much (the change the interest rate rise is designed to encourage).

Meanwhile the cohort who already had the highest disposable income of any group on average (pensioners, who are better off that working age people now on average) actually benefitted from the interest rate hike because they have the majority of the country's wealth (again obviously talking averages here before somebody pipes up that they are a pensioner and poor and didn't benefit personally. 🙄 There's always at least one who doesn't grasp that analysis of demographic and economic issues must use averages and generalisations and takes discussion of such things as a personal insult because they think the entire world revolves around them 😵‍💫). So the people who had the ability to spend on non-essentials were given more disposable income by the higher rates. Also these days with most mortgages on fixed rates the impact of an interest rate increase is far slower, and it affects a far smaller number of people due to the rise in private renting and number of retirees who own outright.

So yes, you are correct, a well-targeted tax would have been better. The BoE had no choice but to raise rates though because of their mandate and it being the only lever they have. It is fiscal policy from Government that should have been different. But they would never have contemplated the alternatives like reducing pensioner welfare/ taxing pensioner assets/ making pensioners pay NI/ equalising capital gains tax and income tax because the pensioners vote for them. They just continue to hammer those of working age even though the economic damage it is doing is crystal clear and is storing up even more problems for the future.

FreeZor · 07/02/2024 10:44

Dapbag · 07/02/2024 10:25

@FreeZor I agree with much of what you say, but can't understand why you say 30 - 40 year olds fund early retirement for anyone. State pension can't be taken early. Those of us who retire early with private pensions pay tax on the money we receive at the same rate as employees.

I and many other older people have spent a lifetime voting for a better life for others. We are not all the same I promise you.

Because many of those private pensions are either: 1) public final salary pensions in unfunded schemes therefore being paid out of current tax revenue; or 2) private ones which have cost companies/ organisations so much that this has depressed the amount of money available to spend on salaries for current staff of working age. This is a well-documented economic effect.

Obviously that isn't the case for those who have funded early retirement entirely out of private savings and investments in ISAs/ defined contribution schemes. But the majority taking early retirement are in receipt of DB scheme pensions per the above. Then on top of all of that state pensions are being paid out at ages and values that the working people currently funding them will never receive themselves and that many of those currently claiming them paid nowhere near enough tax during their lifetimes to fund. To the vast majority of the current generation of those in their 30s and 40s, the idea of receiving any sort of pension aged 60 or even before 70 will be a pipe dream.

SherrieElmer · 07/02/2024 10:52

Brexit lies at the core of all the problems that we are currently facing.

FreeZor · 07/02/2024 10:54

Dapbag · 07/02/2024 10:25

@FreeZor I agree with much of what you say, but can't understand why you say 30 - 40 year olds fund early retirement for anyone. State pension can't be taken early. Those of us who retire early with private pensions pay tax on the money we receive at the same rate as employees.

I and many other older people have spent a lifetime voting for a better life for others. We are not all the same I promise you.

Also the now exhorbitant (and largely untaxed) rise in housing costs over the last few decades to now 8 x salaries on average is a direct transfer of wealth from younger cohorts to those now retired/ some of the Gen X generation who also benefitted immensely. This unearned wealth is another source of the funding behind very comfortable early retirements and is being paid for by the squeezed generation who've had no real-terms salary increases in 15 years, are paying the highest income taxes ever, paying huge childcare costs, paying student loans, paying for state pensions the like of which they'll never receive themselves, then also got hammered by the interest rate hikes on the huge mortgages they had to take out if they wanted a stable home for their children due to their parents having enthusiastically voted for policies that inflated the value of assets far above the value of earned income.

Dapbag · 07/02/2024 10:55

Thanks @FreeZor Really interesting information there.

It's a bloody mess isn't it. I wish more older people would vote with the next generation in mind and that more young people would get out there and vote.
Less than half of under 24 year olds voted in the last general election and they have the most to lose if things continue as they are.

FreeZor · 07/02/2024 11:00

SherrieElmer · 07/02/2024 10:52

Brexit lies at the core of all the problems that we are currently facing.

Brexit is responsible for around £50bn per year of lost tax revenue currently. Interestingly, almost exactly the amount that the tax burden has risen in recent years...

It is the most stupid and pointless and idiotic, self-destructive thing any developed country has done for a long time because it had absolutely zero chance of being anything but a complete shit show. It's not even cutting off your nose to spite your face but shooting yourself in the foot and then the face as well for good measure.

But it's by no means the only cause of the UK's problems. It was rather the cherry on the cake: the final flourish so obviously insane that if the electorate couldn't even grasp that this bright red cherry on top of the "how to fuck up your country for generations" cake was indeed a cherry and it still did not draw their attention to this cake and make them wonder who was eating it, then the politicians would have the message loud and clear that they can do whatever they like and the electorate will do nothing about it. Brexit was a symptom of a disengaged, poorly educated society who are incapable of having a functional democracy because democracy is predicated on the assumption that the electorate are capable of voting in a rational manner.

FreeZor · 07/02/2024 11:26

Dapbag · 07/02/2024 10:55

Thanks @FreeZor Really interesting information there.

It's a bloody mess isn't it. I wish more older people would vote with the next generation in mind and that more young people would get out there and vote.
Less than half of under 24 year olds voted in the last general election and they have the most to lose if things continue as they are.

Such a mess. 😔

My worry is that living standards will drop even more sharply for the generation who are still children now. Fundamental changes need to be made to have any chance of mitigating this. But I can understand why young people don't vote. No party is offering them policies that will genuinely address these issues, that are realistic and targeted at the right priorities.

TheNoonBell · 07/02/2024 11:37

@FreeZor You said: Brexit was a symptom of a disengaged, poorly educated society who are incapable of having a functional democracy because democracy is predicated on the assumption that the electorate are capable of voting in a rational manner.

Are you proposing a dictatorship or something? What do you propose to replace democracy with?

User135644 · 07/02/2024 11:38

Dapbag · 07/02/2024 10:55

Thanks @FreeZor Really interesting information there.

It's a bloody mess isn't it. I wish more older people would vote with the next generation in mind and that more young people would get out there and vote.
Less than half of under 24 year olds voted in the last general election and they have the most to lose if things continue as they are.

Would have made no difference if every younger person voted in the last election. The Boomers demographically are way ahead and are far more right leaning than the Gen Z/millennial cohort (as a majority).

Similar with the Brexit result.

FreeZor · 07/02/2024 11:45

MamaAlwaysknowsbest · 07/02/2024 10:25

so dear working mums and dads, keep working please. Free lunch does not exist anywhere in the world.

It might help if they weren't hugely penalised by the tax system, particularly single parents. But again, politicians know this and won't change it. A single parent with two young children has to earn over £150,000 to have the same income after tax, benefits and childcare as a couple who both earn average salaries. Even parents in couples who need less childcare are discouraged from working full time by the compounding effects of withdrawal of child benefit, the withdrawal of the personal allowance and the withdrawal of childcare funding at earnings thresholds that have not been uprated for well over a decade. Any chancellor with a brain who wanted growth, more tax revenue for services and rising living standards would scrap all of the above. There is robust economic research showing this would increase tax revenue, to scrap these withdrawals. But have they done it? Of course not. If they won't even do the obvious things which are completely within their power to fix instantly, for which there is irrefutable evidence, and which should not be remotely controversial because they are a) manifestly illogical and unfair to the individuals penalised by them, but also; b) beneficial to everyone to get rid of because they will result in more tax revenue and higher productivity (the only way to raise living standards sustainably) then there really is no hope. Neither the current Government nor the opposition have committed to scrap these ridiculous policies, the like of which exist in no other country, even though they know that the evidence for doing so is irrefutable. And are voters questioning them on why they don't do this?

Tumbleweed.

Not a chance of them addressing the more complex and long-term issues if they can't even be bothered to fix things like this that they could sort out in a single day and nobody with half a brain cell would object to.

ginasevern · 07/02/2024 11:56

Sourisblanche · 07/02/2024 10:37

No investment and no growth in the last 15 years.

I agree with pp that it started with George Osbourne and his austerity but I think you can go further back to privatisation. That was the turning point in ‘modern’ politics, selling housing/water/transport for profit.

Thoroughly depressing and yet the media is obsessed by King Charles (yes I wish him well).

One word, Thatcher. She "sold off the family silver ", a phrase used by Harold MacMillan to describe her reckless policies. MacMillan was not an opposition MP but an ex Tory Prime Minister and distinguished grandee of the party.

Thatcher sold everything that wasn't nailed down for knock down rates to investors who cared only about a quick buck and who didn't give a flying fuck about the country.

She ruthlessly destroyed hard working communities who had helped to make Britain a wealthy powerhouse and encouraged the nation, with hysterical fervour, to ridicule and denegrate them.

She created "Care in the Community" for the mentally ill. I leave you to be the judge of that.

Ever wondered why there is no viable social housing? Once again I give you Thatcher.

Anyone who believes the Tory party care about anything other than keeping the wealthy and the old order in place should read some history books. You don't even have to go back that far.

FreeZor · 07/02/2024 11:57

TheNoonBell · 07/02/2024 11:37

@FreeZor You said: Brexit was a symptom of a disengaged, poorly educated society who are incapable of having a functional democracy because democracy is predicated on the assumption that the electorate are capable of voting in a rational manner.

Are you proposing a dictatorship or something? What do you propose to replace democracy with?

I would propose that we completely reform some of the unsustainable drains on public spending that I set out above and use a large chunk of the proceeds to triple or quadruple the education budget: halve class sizes, require much higher standards, provide a much wider choice of state schools focused on different subjects to suit various children, at least double SEN funding. That we develop the talents of our people. That we develop a system more similar to the grammar school one for secondary schools again where those who are academic can get an education of equivalent quality to that enjoyed by the people who currently attend private schools, but based on academic merit not parental wealth. And that alongside this we develop a genuinely equally valuable route to skilled professions/ trades/ technical expertise via high quality real apprenticeships like are provided in the Mittelstand in Germany and elsewhere, also fostering our small to medium-sized businesses that are the backbone of the British economy and our main growth potential by doing so and linking education to skills valuable to employers and not forcing children with practical skills to do academic studies to 18 and out of frustration disrupt that for everyone who is suited to it. Also fund adult education properly/ upskilling/ retraining in skills shortage/ strategically significant industries with growth potential. My proposition is that we use tax revenue on things that actually work and that we don't^^ have a poorly educated electorate in perpetuity. All of that should have been done decades ago alongside reforms to healthcare, infrastructure, tax, childcare, pensions, energy and food security...

C1N1C · 07/02/2024 12:01

Trans rights have improved!

/sarcasm.

aroundtheworldin100days · 07/02/2024 19:33

tallcurvey · 07/02/2024 06:31

The UK is an utter mess.
i can’t think of a single thing that is better than a decade ago.

when will people wake up and see brexit and the current government have ruined the country?

is their anything that’s better?

It makes no difference now who is in Government. It has been gradually leading thus since the end of the 2nd ww as we became dependent on other nations, but there have been persistent gradual fundamental changes.

Imagine if the wrecking of the UK, our language, our culture, our youth has in fact been someone's long term agenda - like something out of a film.... they keep creating mini crises so that everyone is too busy arguing with each other to recognise the real antagonist... Imagine, huh...

aroundtheworldin100days · 07/02/2024 21:09

ginasevern · 07/02/2024 11:56

One word, Thatcher. She "sold off the family silver ", a phrase used by Harold MacMillan to describe her reckless policies. MacMillan was not an opposition MP but an ex Tory Prime Minister and distinguished grandee of the party.

Thatcher sold everything that wasn't nailed down for knock down rates to investors who cared only about a quick buck and who didn't give a flying fuck about the country.

She ruthlessly destroyed hard working communities who had helped to make Britain a wealthy powerhouse and encouraged the nation, with hysterical fervour, to ridicule and denegrate them.

She created "Care in the Community" for the mentally ill. I leave you to be the judge of that.

Ever wondered why there is no viable social housing? Once again I give you Thatcher.

Anyone who believes the Tory party care about anything other than keeping the wealthy and the old order in place should read some history books. You don't even have to go back that far.

I agree that Thatcher's influence was extremely insidious and created huge changes. But then came Blair.. and Iraq... so what happened there?
No Bennite solutions mooted anymore, for sure.

Grantanow · 08/02/2024 15:15

The way the Tories have wrecked the UK for ordinary folk is a scandal. We have seen the worst run of Prime Ministers for years and years. Now there is a rumour that Sunak wants to bring BoJo into the Cabinet. I assume he'd have to become a peer, maybe Lord Buffoon of Brexit-under-Water. Labour will inherit a terrible economic situation.

Grantanow · 08/02/2024 15:22

It's true aroundtheworldin100days that Blair was not perfect but he was right about investing in education. Despite being attacked by the Left he won his third General Election post-Iraq with a hefty majority which, in my view, shows voters are far more concerned about domestic issues. Starmer shouldn't waste time on foreign policy when there is so much wrong at home.

CroftonWillow · 08/02/2024 15:25

tallcurvey · 07/02/2024 06:50

@Meadowfinch

the uk didn’t get money in the markets for Covid.
the Bank of England printed more and the people own that (the bank) so we lent it to ourselves.
as the exchange rate did not change due to that because all countries did it at the same time. So in practicality all that money was free to us.

so the fact that we spent all the money does not add up as a pound is worth what people will give you for it and that didn’t change.

as we didn’t get the money on the money markets we can effectively pay it back never as the debt we owe we owe to ourselves.

It's true that the BOE did a lot of quantative easing (money printing) to get us through Covid but that inself is inflationary as it's increasing money flow into the monetry system and privite markets. They thought it would be transitory, whoops. (Though admittedly Russia/Ukraine and the supply chain disruptions added to it).

CroftonWillow · 08/02/2024 15:28

I personally think Brexit is the single biggest burden on this country. It massively discouraged international investment and completely suffocated the government for about 4 years trying to 'get it done' at the expense of everything else. It's consistent growth that improves peoples lives which is impossible without the investment and policy focus.

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