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Politics

Is the war in Ukraine doomed?

45 replies

Tulipsroses · 14/12/2023 13:09

I studied the conflict since it begun and can see the mood is becoming more and more grim.
What's people opinion on the conflict?

OP posts:

Report

GlobeTrotter2000 · 14/12/2023 14:29

Russia has vast oil reserves they can sell to China and India. So, sanctions by the EU and US have little effect.

Apparently the EU wants to provide 50 billion to the Ukraine, but Hungary objects. So, the idea that EU will always act in collaboration comes under threat.

Was Russia's invasion into the Ukraine an attempt to destablise the West? I think it was.

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 14/12/2023 14:33

Ukraine is rapidly running out of manpower, while Russia hasn't even fully mobilised. It's only going to end one way, and that isn't the way the West have pinned their hopes on.

GlobeTrotter2000 · 14/12/2023 15:27

@XDownwiththissortofthingX It's only going to end one way, and that isn't the way the West have pinned their hopes on.

I agree. Both the EU and the US thought they could sanction anyone into submission. The combined population of the EU and US is Approx 700 million. That's Approx 25% of China and India's population. So, Russia can survive without the EU and the US.

Russia will likely win by attrition. As the Ukraine's resources diminish, they are forced to turn to the West for help. Can the West afford to support the Ukraine forever? I would say no.

JustOneMoreBaileys · 14/12/2023 15:31

Attrition has always been Russia's ace card - in this and other wars. It has more resources and less importance placed on the opinion or experience of civilians. It allows it to play a very long game indeed.

Tulipsroses · 14/12/2023 18:53

I agree in the war of attrition Russia will win due to the size.
There were moments when the west could have sent more planes, missiles, shells which could have turned the tide, cut the land bridge to Crimea and make war completely pointless from Russian perspective.
Now if Ukraine falls the West will face consequences far greater in scale.

OP posts:

dubsie · 17/12/2023 19:43

It's been a disaster but it started way before the full invasion happened. I'm sure the west will eventually run out of money and then what for the Ukraine.

I don't fear Russia, they don't pose a risk to us as long as we treat them as a country we can do business with and share common goals.

GlobeTrotter2000 · 17/12/2023 21:32

@dubsie I'm sure the west will eventually run out of money and then what for the Ukraine.

Very possible. Also, Russia has allies such as:

China and India - Countries who will likely be the largest two economies of the World.

Brazil - Also a country tipped to one of the big players

Saudi Arabia and UAE

EU members such; Bulgaria (FSU), Hungary and Slovakia

dubsie · 18/12/2023 11:06

The problem and has always been the problem is the USA, they too have largely created the problem in Gaza. What happens is eventually things run away with themselves and we lose complete control....just look at the state of Israel and there is no stopping them now.

Really we should be imposing sanctions on Israel but that isn't going to happen while the Americans are in control.

Same problem with the Ukraine, had we actually resolved the issue of disputed regions the invasion would not have have happened. What we have now is a Ukrainian government that not only wants to remove Russia but also wants Crimea back....mission creep and will only cement Russia into a long and deadly war...which we are are paying for.

How many people are going to die before we realise that this isn't how we get peace and prosperity. Those that profit from war would like to see it continue indefinitely....

Tulipsroses · 18/12/2023 12:03

dubsie · 18/12/2023 11:06

The problem and has always been the problem is the USA, they too have largely created the problem in Gaza. What happens is eventually things run away with themselves and we lose complete control....just look at the state of Israel and there is no stopping them now.

Really we should be imposing sanctions on Israel but that isn't going to happen while the Americans are in control.

Same problem with the Ukraine, had we actually resolved the issue of disputed regions the invasion would not have have happened. What we have now is a Ukrainian government that not only wants to remove Russia but also wants Crimea back....mission creep and will only cement Russia into a long and deadly war...which we are are paying for.

How many people are going to die before we realise that this isn't how we get peace and prosperity. Those that profit from war would like to see it continue indefinitely....

I was reading David Arakhamia interview in which he said that they reached an agreement in Spring 2022 in Turkey. The war will stop if Ukraine agrees to neutral NATO status. However both America and Britain told them to walk away and fight.
Looking at it now with a half a million people dead in both sides and no one can be certain when the war will end and on terms which could be far worse for Ukraine. Was it a wise move?

OP posts:

dubsie · 18/12/2023 12:46

Yes I read a similar article and I agree, half a million dead is truly shocking to be honest.

I don't understand war and can't see how conflict can be justified in this age.

When I look at the killing in Gaza and the suffering in particular those that are children. I then ask myself how can Israel justify it's actions.

Hamas vile actions should have been initially ignored and the effort should have been around the recovery of those held hostage. You don't punish children for the actions of men. The men that committed those crimes will have to answer to their consciousness and ultimately their god. Had Israel behaved properly then international community would be more open to bringing those involved to justice..it's about winning hearts and minds including those that live in these troubled areas.

Putin is wrong but to think that a war can resolve our differences is ignorance at best. Putin will learn that it's one thing to invade a country and another winning the support of those that occupy it. Putin's dreams are doomed to failure and history is proof of that

Stresa22 · 18/12/2023 12:57

The U.S. has piecemealed its support so much that Russia has been able to adapt. They needed suffocating but all along the way they’ve been given oxygen by the West.

tescocreditcard · 18/12/2023 13:02

I think your right.

All I keep doing is hoping for Putin to just die a natural death. Soon.

Tulipsroses · 18/12/2023 14:55

Stresa22 · 18/12/2023 12:57

The U.S. has piecemealed its support so much that Russia has been able to adapt. They needed suffocating but all along the way they’ve been given oxygen by the West.

It was possible to strangle Russia but only if China would withdraw support. However for China Russia is far too important as an ally.

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dubsie · 18/12/2023 20:40

I don't see the point of strangling Russia, it just worsens relations and you run the risk of escalating the conflict. It's ok for America to behave in this way but for an island like Britain that is heavily reliant on Russian Oil and Money it's seem bonkers to me to be on a war footing with such a regime.

We should have been robust on Russian investment and interference years ago but thanks to the Tory's ww became hooked on Russian money.

GlobeTrotter2000 · 19/12/2023 11:29

@dubsie We should have been robust on Russian investment and interference years ago but thanks to the Tory's ww became hooked on Russian money.

Apperently Trump warned years ago that EU reliance of Russian energy would create problems, but EU did not take heed.

Tulipsroses · 19/12/2023 11:36

I honestly think that if Trump was in power the whole conflict would not have started.

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WhatsTheUseOfWorrying · 19/12/2023 11:41

I disagree. The US will fund resistance to Russian warfare. Just as they fund resistance to expansionist China and to the genocidal headbangers that run Iran.

All these conflicts and tensions are easily traceable back to Soviet and Chinese communist policy, including support for any regime, however nasty, that opposes the West.

The US knows this and is not intimidated in the way that Europe is.

In any case, Russian occupation of Ukraine will be a never ending conflict that Russia cannot win.

PhulNana · 19/12/2023 11:43

Is the OP a Putin bot?

PhulNana · 19/12/2023 11:43

Tulipsroses · 19/12/2023 11:36

I honestly think that if Trump was in power the whole conflict would not have started.

Now I know you're a Putin bot.

IBegYourBiggestPardon · 19/12/2023 11:55

Tulipsroses · 19/12/2023 11:36

I honestly think that if Trump was in power the whole conflict would not have started.

If that wazzock was still in power we'd probably be in the midst of WW3 now

itsmyp4rty · 19/12/2023 11:57

tescocreditcard · 18/12/2023 13:02

I think your right.

All I keep doing is hoping for Putin to just die a natural death. Soon.

From what I've read whoever takes over from Putin will be just as bad, if not worse.

ssd · 19/12/2023 12:06

Its heartbreaking whats happening there

Tulipsroses · 19/12/2023 20:06

PhulNana · 19/12/2023 11:43

Is the OP a Putin bot?

I don't know why you called me a Putin bot I truly believe that unpredictability of Trump would have been a deterrent to Putin. The complete paralysis and indecisiveness of Biden in the vital moments of invasion have let Russia to keep going in Ukraine. Just imagine first few days of the war and NATO uses its airforce in neutral Ukraine as a bilateral military help. The war is over in 2-3 days.
But for this you need ball which Biden or anyone in Europe has.
I remember when Erdogan shot down Russian plane, over Turkey. This should have started a WW3, but the only response Putin could show is to ban Turkish tomatoes.

OP posts:

mach2 · 23/12/2023 17:19

The U.S. has piecemealed its support so much...

Yes. I think they wanted a war of attrition by not chucking in the right weaponry quickly enough. I think they, and everybody else in the western alliance, will rue it.

dubsie · 24/12/2023 09:33

Tulipsroses · 19/12/2023 11:36

I honestly think that if Trump was in power the whole conflict would not have started.

I don't think so, Trump if anything made things worse. His foreign policy weakened Europe and NATO.

The American regime rules by force so it really doesn't matter whether republicans or democratics rule .. they are the probably the most hostile state on the planet. The wage war and create the environment for hostilities all over the world just to protect it's super power status.

Just look at Gaza, they have repeatedly failed to support a ceasefire despite the huge human cost. The importance of this region for all faiths is not any secret and yet the Americans are literally supporting genocide. As a Catholic I find this very hard to stomach and very upsetting to see Christians, Jews and Muslims being killed by Zionist Fascists under the guise of self defence. The war is now causing troubles across the middle East and you can see where this is going because right now the worlds Navy is piling into this region at the order of our American masters.

All this when we in the middle of a major religious festival that promotes peace and goodwill to all. So when you tuck your children into bed tonight please spare a thought for the children in Gaza who won't have a Christmas this year, have been displaced, lost parents and siblings, have suffered life changing injuries....all this suffering in the name of self defence. What exactly are we defending in the Ukraine and Israel because we certainly aren't defending people....we are defending Americas interests.

So when I sum it all up, the Ukraine war is lost because we've lost the moral argument....

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