I can't get my head around Israel and Palestine

[rumred]

I've read some non partisan stuff and I still don't understand.
Some friends are very vociferous about it and I feel like I should have a stance.
Can anyone explain it in lay woman's terms?

I don't think any single person can explain it, certainly not in this small online space.

My personal view is that Israel is a lone island with some semblance of democracy surrounded by countries so hostile that they'd like to wipe Israel off the map entirely. Naturally, this has made Israel very military-minded over the decades. Israel periodically launches attacks trying to target terrorists, and Palestinians attack at random, often civilians. Palestinians, who are generally so held in contempt by other Arab countries that they won't take them in, abetted in the past with attacks on Israel, ran when Israel was attacked, but still think Israel should give them back their homes. Rather than making a life elsewhere, or persuading other Arab countries to give them a home, they periodically attack Israel, come out on the worse end of the deal, and then blame Israel for it. As far as I know, they continue to teach their schoolchildren to vilify Israelis and to glorify suicide bombers.

This is subjective, of course, and I'm sure others will disagree.

Try wiki?

Dunno.

It's a lot of history and context and all sorts. Complicated.

I think reading is all you can do

Rather than making a life elsewhere, or persuading other Arab countries to give them a home

I've lived in three countries by choice and cannot imagine the sadness and anger if I was forced out of my country into exile and refugee status. No citizenship in the new country BTW. Would you be super fine with being forced out of your country to be a refugee?

My summary of the situation... no one is right, no one is wrong. Stupid men think you can solve difficult problems with bombs and guns. The Palestinians have fewer of them so they die in droves.

This is basic but quite useful if you don't know much.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-44124396

There are lots of good articles out there, just read around a bit. I would recommend finding your own stuff from reliable websites than asking on a forum where you have no idea how biased people might be.

Well its definitely not as MsAmerica suggests! Talk about a biased view

There is another thread on this with unbiased views from both sides, unless MN have decided to delete that like all other threads on this topic

It's simple.

It was all Palestine. Till the Jews decided they need a land of there own. With the help of the British they were given rights to settle in Palestine and call it there own - Israel. Over the past few decades Jews have 'settled' in more and more of Palestine and claimed it as Israel to the point USA and many other countries refuse to recognise Palestine as a state anymore.

It's basically how most lands were taken off natives. E.g. native Americans

As usually the natives are vilified regardless of being pushed out of their homeland.

Oh and they believe this is there God given land therefore are taking it by force in accordance to their religious teachings.

They forget how Jerusalem is important to Christians and Muslims as well as Jews.

".....It's basically how most lands were taken off natives.......the natives are vilified ( despite ) being pushed out (off) of their land...." As @UmmMaryam2019 says.

Like Northern Ireland.

Thanks for the helpful messages/thoughts.
@nancywhitehead that's a good summary I think.

@UmmMaryam2019

It's simple.

It was all Palestine. Till the Jews decided they need a land of there own. With the help of the British they were given rights to settle in Palestine and call it there own - Israel. Over the past few decades Jews have 'settled' in more and more of Palestine and claimed it as Israel to the point USA and many other countries refuse to recognise Palestine as a state anymore.

It's basically how most lands were taken off natives. E.g. native Americans

As usually the natives are vilified regardless of being pushed out of their homeland.

Oh and they believe this is there God given land therefore are taking it by force in accordance to their religious teachings.

They forget how Jerusalem is important to Christians and Muslims as well as Jews.

I'm not sure, but I don't think Palestine has been recognized as a state since 1948. That's when Palestinians should have done something, instead of waiting around for a half-century. Jews didn't suddenly decide that they needed a land of their own. It had been shared, and then after the WWII genocide, they were given the land. But you're right in your implication that Jews probably felt they needed a land of their own, since there are already many countries for Muslims.

And I don't think that Israel "forgets" how important Jerusalem is to Christians and Muslims. They just object to people being overly aggressive about it, just as the British would try to be if Italy suddenly tried to grab England and claim it belonged to them from 2000 years ago.

Everyone forgets to look at the history of the land before Palestine. It hasn't been Palestine since the dawn of time, and earliest records show the land was initially Judea before the Israelites were ethnically cleansed out of the land and into diaspora.

It's not taking land off the Palestinians, it's reclaiming their homeland.

has been recognized as a state since 1948.

The land was split. Gaza and the West Bank are not technically Israel, they were to be Palestinian. Under International Law, Gaza and the West Bank are not part of Israel. Unfortunately, Israel has taken over large parts of the West Bank, illegally, including most of the agricultural land. Palestinians have pushed further and further into the corners, I don't blame them for being angry.

It's not taking land off the Palestinians, it's reclaiming their homeland.

Imagine if every displaced people started trying to claim back land from thousands of years ago. They got given most of the land. Why do they keep taking more?

@Owlina
Not every displaced people have been subjected to what the Jews were last century though. Surely that is key?

Not every displaced people have been subjected to what the Jews were last century though. Surely that is key?

There are Jews that don't agree with Israel existing.

But regardless, I don't disagree with them being given land. I disagree with them creating settlements in land that legally does not belong to them, e.g. in the West Bank. Why aren't they happy with what they've been given?

One of my lovely Jewish friends was called a “self-hating Jew” by people in her own community just because she was vocal against Israel’s actions. She told me that not many people remember the likes of Rachel Corrie and pro-Israelis like to call diminish Rachel’s death saying she was an “extremist”

She said that you’ll often pro-Israelis saying the same talking points and she pointed out if anyone is open-minded enough will look into Hasbara. She said these are the usual talking points:

• Israeli gov. was acting in self-defense even when you point out the disproportionality of its actions.
• Israel is recognized by United Nations, but then get defensive when you point out UN resolutions against Israel
• Muslims and Christians have many countries, Jews need a place to call home too. Don’t forget the Holocaust.
• This land belongs to the Jews. It’s not simple just resettlement, they are just reclaiming their ancient birth right. This is also one of the reasons used to bulldoze and evict people from their homes, the government takes over that part of the land and then says the Palestinians are living there illegally so should be evicted or they have the right bulldoze illegal property.

I’m not saying the Holocaust wasn’t atrocious, but I don’t think it then excuses the need to take over another country for a place to belong and then claim you have a historic right to own said country. And the fact the Holocaust is used as a reason for Israel’s right for existence she said was unnerving and her discomfort with this made her a “self-hating Jew”

In fact there are many sects of Judaism, and there are many Orthodox Jews who actually believe Israel is a place that God will give after their perpetual wondering, but it won’t be in this life but the next.

One of my old lecturers, from almost a decade ago, is a modern Orthodox Jew. He loves Rabbi Arik Ascherman, who many a time stood in the way of bulldozers only to be dragged away and beaten privately, but he doesn’t agree with him fully because my lecturer actually believed Jews who moved to Israel and live in settlements aren’t “settlers” but rather “resettlers” who are returning to their homes. Apparently depending on the label that is used amongst Jews, it’s a code to see where you stand on Israel. He also believed that Israel has the right to remain, but asserted that he believes there should be a two part state. He also stated that apparently there are some Christians who believed “Jews are cursed as they killed Christ” and so he thinks it’s high time that Jews who have been persecuted, need a home to belong to. He was the one who mentioned that there are different types of Orthodox Jews, some are spiritual etc. And he also mentioned there are secular Jews who don’t even believe in God or as he used to write “G-d”

So you’ll find a range a views amongst the different types of Jews, some pro-Israel and full on believers of Zionist and some anti-Israel and some in the middle. It’s never simple. And whilst the horrors of what the Palestinian people shouldn’t be trivialized, the history and politics is very interesting.

Will they be only be satisfied once there are no green areas left?

Ugh, typos. If only there was an edit button.

Recent post, some informative views and links.

Idiot’s guide to the Palestine/Israel conflict anyone? www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4244743-Idiot-s-guide-to-the-Palestine-Israel-conflict-anyone

You'd think Americans would be a little more careful bandying around the idea that oppressed people, subject to genocide and extermination, should just be able to 'reclaim' their own land. How does that work with First Nations and indigenous people in the US and Canada? They going to hand back the whole place? Of course not.

Indigenous people don't get to reclaim their homelands in most of the world, even though they've suffered horribly in those countries (and Australia and others).

But the real issue is trying to solve a land dispute with bombs and guns. Both the Palestinian people and the Israeli people have a 'claim'. Arguing whose claim is better is ridiculous. What needs to happen is understanding that everyone needs a safe home. Everyone.

I think a lot of people outside of Israel seem to forget that Jews have maintained a continuous population in Israel for thousands of years. And yes, Ashkenazi, Sephardim, etc moved to Israel in more recent times, but the majority of modern Israeli Jews are at least partly of Mizrahi (middle eastern) origin. After the establishment of Israel in 1948 nearly a million Jews were expelled from Arab countries. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries Where were they to go?

The Palestinians have been offered their own country repeatedly but it is an all or nothing proposition in the minds of their leaders, which is not practical. Read the Hamas charter, it calls for the destruction of Israel (and I don’t think the Christian and Druze population would be keen on that).

@Ritascornershop Are you talking about ancient Israel? And also the need for Jewish immigration into their very own homeland has been the main component of Zionism which as a construct was invented in the late 1800s.

Even before the birth of modern day Israel was created by UN, there were already plans for it take place many decades before this. You don’t have to look too far to find out when this actually happened. A cynic would argue that the Palestinian people never stood a chance. If a more powerful country just decides to administrative control of a weaker country, without even a democratic process, is that just?

And also with the creation of Israel by the UN, there too was a partition plan. Has Israel even stuck to this plan? Despite the fact there were partitions for Palestinians to remain, this has been encroached upon for years upon years. Again, do your research and how small their pockets of existence has become. Why else do you think there have been UN resolutions against Israel taking place numerous times?

Whenever you have massive injustice and a lack of political voice, it sometimes leads to radicalisation. It makes some people think there is no other option, this notion is not a unique one and you’ll find this a common occurrence when studying history. The doors need to be open for diplomacy and it has to be adhered to. You talk of Hamas, ignoring too their provocations (check points and assassinations have been forgotten about?), not to mention the most recent ones during the Muslim month of Ramadan which lead to an escalation of violence, one cannot exist without the other. You could even argue, for a war to be justified by Israel, this is even needed. Even when there were no rockets fired, did it prevent Israel from acting unjustly? Or is this somehow also Hamas’ fault?

The actions and existence of Hamas cannot be conflated with the suffering of the Palestinian people. So you’re saying that Palestinians have been offered their own country? Where exactly would that be? I’m really curious. You don’t think that just as Israeli government’s encroachment on Palestinian partitions, there won’t be a need for expansion and this could potentially expand into this “new” country?

If you look at it from the perspective of Just War Theorists, you’d still find that Israel has been unjust. But somehow the pro-Israel narrative is just focusing on rockets and Hamas only. There are faults on both sides but it’s clear which side’s is greater.

This isn’t just coming from me, this is coming from the years of research my Jewish friends have done. And I felt the need to add that they were Jewish because anything but being Jewish would been seen as a lack of understanding and bias. This is why they are called “self-hating Jews”.

There are younger Jews within Israel who also don’t agree with the government’s narrative, not to mention the legislative measures that been implemented for decades as well as new contentious legislation which was clearly used to divide society as well as disenfranchise Palestinians even more.

The actions and existence of Hamas cannot be conflated with the suffering of the Palestinian people. So you’re saying that Palestinians have been offered their own country? Where exactly would that be? I’m really curious. You don’t think that just as Israeli government’s encroachment on Palestinian partitions, there won’t be a need for expansion and this could potentially expand into this “new” country?

I am very interested in this as well.

@ExitChasedByABee - not sure what you mean by am I talking about ancient Israel? I said Jews have maintained a continuous presence in Israel. From ancient times steadily through to now.

As for what the partition offered in ‘48 was, look it up. The maps are easily found online. And no, I can’t see a benefit to Israel invading a future state.

Doesn’t Hamas’ behaviour bother you? I feel you’re just waving it away. No elections in ages, murdering gay men, their leaders living it up on foreign aid money, the stated annihilation of Israeli Jews (& I cant see Hamas treating christians or Druze well either).

As for there being a direct route from injustice to radicalization, I disagree. I think it’s offensive to posit that some people can’t control themselves and have to bomb bus stations and pizza parlours. I don’t see First Nations in Canada bombing anyone.

Lastly, I find this cloak of “Jewish friends say” distasteful. . Sure Jewish opinion differs, but using your claim of ‘Jewish friends say’ leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Either you believe your ideas have credence or you don’t. Don’t use your claim of but some of my friends are Jews to shore up your claim.

@Ritascornershop I was confused as you meant Jews have been living in Israel for thousands of years as modern day Israel wasn’t created thousands of years ago.

Lastly, I find this cloak of “Jewish friends say” distasteful. . Sure Jewish opinion differs, but using your claim of ‘Jewish friends say’ leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Either you believe your ideas have credence or you don’t. Don’t use your claim of but some of my friends are Jews to shore up your claim.

What do you mean by this? Also, you’re picking and choosing what I’m writing but ignoring any points I’ve actually made. Only focusing on Hamas I see and nothing about the actions of the Israeli government. You don’t agree with the UN resolutions then?

For example this:

The actions and existence of Hamas cannot be conflated with the suffering of the Palestinian people. So you’re saying that Palestinians have been offered their own country? Where exactly would that be? I’m really curious. You don’t think that just as Israeli government’s encroachment on Palestinian partitions, there won’t be a need for expansion and this could potentially expand into this “new” country?

Also I can’t help but feel that you’re being disingenuous now because you’re twisting my words.