I can't get my head around Israel and Palestine

[rumred]

I've read some non partisan stuff and I still don't understand.
Some friends are very vociferous about it and I feel like I should have a stance.
Can anyone explain it in lay woman's terms?

As you know, Israel is an ancient kingdom and I was referring to Jews having been in roughly that area (including Jerusalem) for thousands of years.

It’s pretty obvious what I’m meaning about using Jewish friends to shore up your beliefs, I think you’re being deliberately obtuse.

I answered your intellectual exercise about Israel encroaching on a potential future nation: I said I don’t see why they would.

I have answered some of your points, but you are cherry picking as well.

As for UN resolutions, feh. The UN has a very peculiar record regarding Israel. From Wikipedia: “ As of 2013, Israel had been condemned in 45 resolutions by the United Nations Human Rights Council. Since the creation of the Council in 2006, it has resolved almost more resolutions condemning Israel than on the rest of the world combined.“ Do you honestly believe that Israel, the only Jewish state, has had more human rights problems than China? Than North Korea? Than Saudi Arabia, Myanmar, Iran, Eritrea, Afghanistan? Israel has Druze, Christians and Muslims serving in the armed forces and in the Knesset and the judiciary. They have equal rights for women and lgbtq people. But more resolutions against them than anyone else? No, I don’t put too much faith in UN resolutions.

When did I use my friends to shore up my beliefs? I said that my friends had years of research into this. Am I inclined to believe their years of research? Most definitely. Why wouldn’t I when they have facts, statistics and actual evidence to back what their saying? Do I deplore injustice? Absolutely.

Another thing, did I even write “my Jewish friends say” or is that you twisting my words again? Also, are you trying to diminish my friends’ experiences because I can assure being called a “self-hating Jew” isn’t a new thing flung at any Jewish person who has been teensy bit critical of the Israeli government’s actions.

This is what you said about me: It’s pretty obvious what I’m meaning about using Jewish friends to shore up your beliefs, I think you’re being deliberately obtuse.
Point out where I was the one “cherry picking”? I merely asked you to clarify as I was confused by what you meant. When did that ever mean “cherry picking”?

And @Ritascornershop I do think you’re picking and choosing and twisting what I’m writing which made me feel that you were being disingenuous. And now you’re saying that I’m being “deliberately obtuse”.

This is what I wrote:
If you look at it from the perspective of Just War Theorists, you’d still find that Israel has been unjust. But somehow the pro-Israel narrative is just focusing on rockets and Hamas only. There are faults on both sides but it’s clear which side’s is greater.

Somehow it’s ok to criticise one side’s faults but not the other. I find that very interesting indeed.

it has resolved almost more resolutions condemning Israel than on the rest of the world combined. What do you mean by this?

And besides you’re the one who said that the Palestinians have been offered their own country repeatedly. This wasn’t me cherry picking. You said that you have answered my intellectual exercise but you didn’t really mention where this new country the Palestinians are supposed to have to.

Accusing me of using my friends and invalidating their experiences and their research also left a bad taste in my mouth by the way.

And @Ritascornershop in case you’re wondering why I even wording it that very way as I am not even trying to be goady, these were your very words:

Lastly, I find this cloak of “Jewish friends say” distasteful. . Sure Jewish opinion differs, but using your claim of ‘Jewish friends say’ leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Either you believe your ideas have credence or you don’t. Don’t use your claim of but some of my friends are Jews to shore up your claim.

It hasn't been Palestine since the dawn of time, and earliest records show the land was initially Judea before the Israelites were ethnically cleansed out of the land and into diaspora.

It's not taking land off the Palestinians, it's reclaiming their homeland.

When was Palestine their homeland?

Palestine was never a country. Up until 1917 it was part of the Ottoman Empire. When that empire dissolved in WW1, the British took over administration of it in 1917 as "The British Mandate of Palestine".

It had always had a majority Arab/muslim population and a minority jewish one. The Zionist movement began in the 19th century based on the belief that it was the jews' "God given" homeland, and encouraged jews from elsewhere to go and settle there, gradually increasing the size of the jewish minority both up until 1917 and after, through the period of the mandate.

At the end of WW2 a lot of concentration camp survivors were resettled there. This is sometimes misleadingly described by Pro-Palestinian people in the west as a completely new thing - a whole bunch of jewish people just "suddenly" "invading" Palestine. In reality it was one further stage in the ongoing process of Zionist settlement.

The British had wanted for some time to withdraw from the mandate, and consulted with the leaders of both populations and various parties how to do that. They ended up with a partition plan to divide the mandate territory in two, one majority Arab/muslim (Palestine) and one majority jewish (Israel). The jews accepted this plan; the Palestinians didn't. (Actually I'm not sure that's quite true: it was not entirely clear who spoke for the Palesitnians and there is some evidence of broad agreement, but the neighbouring Arab countries were totally, implacably against).

The British went ahead and withdrew on this basis anyway in 1948. Israel declared its nationhood and the Arab League immediately declared war on it, vowing to wipe it out. Israel won that war. As part of the settlement, Jordan got the west bank and Egypt got the Gaza strip.

There were continual simmering tensions after that erupting into bloodshed on various scales. In 1967 Israel was attacked in the 6 day war, but again won, and in the settlement claimed authority over the west bank and Gaza strip. These are known as the "occupied territories". Israel sees them as a "buffer zone", necessary around Israel proper for national security, being surrounded as it is by enemies. Unfortunately there are people (the Palestinians) who live in them, and are treated as second class citizens.

There is a thread running through much of the Islamic world in the region of implacable opposition to any possibility of a jewish state existing these. This for example is (basically) the position of Hamas. Israel sees the Palestinians' support for Hamas as an indication that negotiation is practically impossible and they need to take a hard line. Western pro-Palestinians OTOH see Israel's terrible oppression of the Palestinians, racism and appalling attitude to human rights as justification for the Palestinians turning to desparate measures.

Who's right depends on who you listen to, and a whole bunch of ultimately very subjective questions.

@UmmMaryam2019

It's simple.

It was all Palestine. Till the Jews decided they need a land of there own. With the help of the British they were given rights to settle in Palestine and call it there own - Israel. Over the past few decades Jews have 'settled' in more and more of Palestine and claimed it as Israel to the point USA and many other countries refuse to recognise Palestine as a state anymore.

It's basically how most lands were taken off natives. E.g. native Americans

As usually the natives are vilified regardless of being pushed out of their homeland.

Oh and they believe this is there God given land therefore are taking it by force in accordance to their religious teachings.

They forget how Jerusalem is important to Christians and Muslims as well as Jews.

🤔

Jews lived in the area way longer than muslims - FACT

There has always remained a Jewish population in the area. Even in that has varied in numbers at different times- FACT

The Jews built the city of Tel Avivin 1909 - FACT

The Jewish Palestinian football team played a world tour with Australia in 1939 -FACT

The Jews did not just turn up in 1948 and say sod off we are stealing your houses! Which is what posts like your and social media propaganda want people to believe.

The population of Israel is native Jewish arabs, refugee families from the war, refugees from Syria, Iran and other Muslim majority countries in the area. Plus Russia, Europe immigrants that have experienced antisemitism in their own countries. On top of that you obviously have American and European jews.

However most importantly you have Palestinian people living inside the state of Israel. Over 20% of people living in Israel are Palestinians. Some stayed when the state was formed but a lot are there because they had to flee Palestine.

Israeli government are horrendous and the settlements are wrong. However this ignorant spread of misinformation to try and dismantle the state of Israel is very wrong too.

Today I opened a book in a random way. It was written by a politician. This is what I read: "No peace process can ever be effective unless both sides are fully committed to it. One of the most startling acts of peace in my lifetime was when President Anwar Sadat of Egypt addressed the Knesset. He and Menachem Begin, his Israeli counterpart, wanted an end to the destructive war that was raging between their countries. It was an effective peace process only because of equal commitment and there will be no similar success between Israel and Palestine until there is an equal and bilateral determination to end the conflict, so most Western intervention is doomed at the outset."

You don't have to have a stance, rumred but start by reading about Abraham and his grandson Jacob, also called Israel, and work your way through the centuries.

When the British had care of the country from about 1917 on, it was called Palestine. Had it been part of the Ottoman Empire before that for quite a long time? I must look it up. What was it called then?

Anyway, if you are religious or not religious, pray for the peace of Jerusalem, as asked or directed to in one of the psalms, (122?) which was written a very long time ago.

There isn't any place in the world where all hope must be given up, but some places come a bit near hopeless.

OP try this www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/2018/11/20/18079996/israel-palestine-conflict-guide-explainer

Once there was Palestine. Then the Brits ruled it for a bit until it got too hard, so we gave up and asked the UN what to do.
Meanwhile there had been Hitler, and so there were high level calls for there to be a Jewish homeland where they wouldn’t be a persecuted minority. Jews wanted it to be in Palestine, they lobbied for that and got it. Millions of Jews moved there. This made the people who already lived there pretty upset and they fought back. Everyone agreed that this was jolly naughty of them, and Israel got given a shed load of weapons by America for defence. Israel decided that the best way to make its borders safe was to keep invading and seizing its neighbours land. This made the neighbours v sad and they fired rockets at Israel. So then Israel made more weapons and invaded more territory. Etc.

Someone once explained it to me as being a bit like an abused child who then grows up to become an abuser.

This probably sounds biased. But British friends of mine have worked out there in a neutral role and they did not come back able to say anything good about Israel. There is a lot of low level day to day persecution of Palestinians, eg Israeli soldiers kicking in doors to shoot Palestinian pets for fun, etc.

It’s a mess.

@MrsTerryPratchett

You'd think Americans would be a little more careful bandying around the idea that oppressed people, subject to genocide and extermination, should just be able to 'reclaim' their own land. How does that work with First Nations and indigenous people in the US and Canada? They going to hand back the whole place? Of course not.

Indigenous people don't get to reclaim their homelands in most of the world, even though they've suffered horribly in those countries (and Australia and others).

But the real issue is trying to solve a land dispute with bombs and guns. Both the Palestinian people and the Israeli people have a 'claim'. Arguing whose claim is better is ridiculous. What needs to happen is understanding that everyone needs a safe home. Everyone.

Don’t forget Australia, New Zealand or South Africa either.