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Will the penny finally drop?

28 replies

Newrumpus · 07/05/2021 14:47

Will the penny finally drop with the Labour Party that they cannot win back their lost strongholds until they reform their attitudes toward the working class? Or is the Labour Party doomed to be a minority middle class group increasingly out of touch with the wider population? Or possibly to split? What do you think?

OP posts:
flashbac · 07/05/2021 14:53

Sadly I think its doomed and even if they do turn it around the press and media are Tory controlled now (see government interference in Ofcom, BBC, channel 4 board etc) so what hope is there?

PresentingPercy · 07/05/2021 18:30

There are not enough working class votes to get them enough seats so that’s a waste of time. Brexit votes have gone to the conservatives. If will need the working class to get over Brexit and vote Labour again. This could take 10 years. The middle class is now huge. Ignoring them means no chance of power. A few red seats in old industrial areas won’t lead to governance. Appealing to a wide spectrum of voters is vital. But how you do this is the question. But left wing politics are dead.

PresentingPercy · 07/05/2021 18:33

Press isn’t read by many. Media is now huge and wide. Opinions everywhere. Labour voters wanted Brexit. I think they were stupid but they don’t. So now they vote conservative because they did Brexit.

the80sweregreat · 08/05/2021 20:42

A new party is needed.
Labour are pretty much on the back burner now on the back bench going nowhere :(

FifteenToes · 24/06/2021 17:27

I don't know.

Will the penny finally drop with the working class that everything the Tories tell them is lies, that every penny of saving from destroying the services they rely on will find its way upwards to the offshore bank accounts of Tory donors, that Brexit will not make them one bit wealthier, and that they're really paying an absurdly high price out of their own welfare and their children's future, just for the right to wail about how angry they are at a set of middle class people who aren't actually the ones responsible for their misfortune in the first place?

Maybe we'll suddenly be deafened by the sound of all these pennies dropping together.

TrifleCat · 24/06/2021 17:37

When will the penny finally drop that in order to be voted in you need to listen to the people you are supposed to represent?

FifteenToes · 24/06/2021 23:26

So you think the Conservative party represents the working class? OK then?

Fuckingcrustybread · 24/06/2021 23:33

Will the penny finally drop with some users of Mumsnet, will they ever realise that they're in an Echo chamber and the vast majority of the voters in the U.K. don't agree with them.
Will those same users ever accept that the UK voted to leave the EU.?
Will they ever accept that the Tories achieved an unprecedented 80 seat majority?
Will they ever STFU and stop bloody whining?

Justawaterformeplease · 24/06/2021 23:37

@Fuckingcrustybread

Will the penny finally drop with some users of Mumsnet, will they ever realise that they're in an Echo chamber and the vast majority of the voters in the U.K. don't agree with them.
Will those same users ever accept that the UK voted to leave the EU.?
Will they ever accept that the Tories achieved an unprecedented 80 seat majority?
Will they ever STFU and stop bloody whining?

Hardly unprecedented…
SecondCityShark · 24/06/2021 23:42

Will they ever accept that the Tories achieved an unprecedented 80 seat majority?
Will they ever STFU and stop bloody whining?


Not just MN but out in the world too. But we are hardly a minority. Look at the politics of the last decade.

The odd thing to me is that despite repeated Conservative wins, the left seem to still be in charge. Their voice is somehow louder. Probably The Twitter Effect.

HeddaGarbled · 24/06/2021 23:47

The wheel will come around again, it always does. Elections can be lost as well as won.

FifteenToes · 25/06/2021 00:39

@Fuckingcrustybread

Will the penny finally drop with some users of Mumsnet, will they ever realise that they're in an Echo chamber and the vast majority of the voters in the U.K. don't agree with them.
Will those same users ever accept that the UK voted to leave the EU.?
Will they ever accept that the Tories achieved an unprecedented 80 seat majority?
Will they ever STFU and stop bloody whining?

Just in case anyone's interested in a rational conversation -

  1. "Vast majority"? Majority, yes. I do accept that. In terms of the overall culture war between Tories/Brexit/Nationalism/Neoliberalism and Labour/Remain/Progressivism/Socialism, there are larger numbers in the country in support or the former than the latter. It is winning the battle at this point in time.


So what? You either want to talk about and consider what each side has to say on its merits, or you don't. The fact that something has a majority doesn't make it right. Majorities of people in societies since forever have believed and supported things that were wrong, misguided or evil. This thread was started - highly provocatively - by somebody clearly coming from the first (majority) camp. So what? - the opposite camp is not allowed to answer, because they're in a minority? Well don't start such a thread then, if you're not willing to take responses.

But "VAST majority"? Not really. The brexit referendum was won by 52% - 48%. The Tories won 43% of the vote in the last election. There is nothing "vast" about any of that. First Past The Post distorts the popular vote to give huge power to the largest unified minority. That's what it's designed to do.

  1. Of course I accept that the UK voted to leave the EU. That's just a fact. It happened. Again, so what? I can't point out the facts that almost all economic analysis point to - that Brexit is unlikely to make working Britons richer, and will probably make them poorer - just because it happened? Thos who voted for it are now responsible for the consequences of it. It's not my or anyone else's responsibility to humour them and make them feel better about those consequences.


  1. Of course I accept that the Tories acheived an 80 seat majority. Again, so what? Debate about the various values and policies of politics stops now, because the Tories won so they're obviously right?


  1. "Whining"? Er, I think you only need to look at the OP of this post to see who is whining. So is the idea that the right are allowed to keep whining about how terrible the left are for not giving them what they wanted - even when they've now WON Brexit, AND an election, and (apparently) GOT what they wanted? But nobody on the left is allowed to answer their claims, cos that would be "whining"?


FWIW I have no love for the Labour party, and recently resigned my membership. But nor am I going to sit back and accept a load of tosh about how they're so responsible for the plight of the working class, when they haven't actually been in power for a decade because the working class prefer to vote for the people who are actually responsible for their plight.

Some things are just too stupid to not be challenged. If you don't like it, then don't say them.
Newrumpus · 28/06/2021 00:06

Wow FifteenToes - your assumptions about me though wrong are interesting.
The real reason I started the thread is because I think we are in a really interesting and challenging period of political realignment. Many traditional Labour voters have voted Conservative for the first time ever and having done so may be much harder for Labour to engage. I think this is challenging and also exciting. I can’t see Labour at the moment doing anything to suggest that they have understood that they need to reengage their traditional voters and this leaves the potential for a genuinely new and progressive movement to emerge.

OP posts:
Torvean · 28/06/2021 00:18

Labour need a decent leader that is liked across all countries of the UK.
It very much feels like England is top priority in the past few PM'S.

Andy Burnham would not be a good choice and the current one is not better. I'm not surprised that Lib-Dem are picking up some seats.

Newrumpus · 28/06/2021 08:06

I agree that Starmer does not have the required vision or leadership to do this. Maybe a defeat in Batley will be the catalyst for the changes that are needed.

OP posts:
joangray38 · 28/06/2021 08:38

When they get a tony Blair mark2 who will appeal to the middle and working class. Most working class don’t see themselves as that anymore or are aspirational.

Sickoffamilydrama · 28/06/2021 10:05

Labour may never get back to what they where they have evolved.

Andy Burnham has mixed reviews in Greater Manchester he's seen by many as a grandstander.

I don't think all the posts I see on social media with people lambasting people for voting Tories helps, it actually makes me want to vote for them just to be awkward!

Interestingly I wonder if the Tories will change their culture, I spoke to our local newly elected MP and he was very much what I would have consider labour was like under Tony B and was saying he was hoping the newly elected group would change the party.

If Labour can change so much then why not the Tories it's an interesting thought.

Justjoinedforthis · 28/06/2021 10:26

Labour need to refocus on workers’ rights (they are the Labour party after all) - speak up for the workers not the bosses.

Sickoffamilydrama · 28/06/2021 12:19

@Justjoinedforthis

Labour need to refocus on workers’ rights (they are the Labour party after all) - speak up for the workers not the bosses.

The problem is they often get it wrong Andy Burnham wrote to the manufacturing business I work for at the beginning of the first lockdown telling them they should be closed.

Apart from the usual people who always want extra most of my colleagues didn't want to stop working especially if it risked them not being paid and we make products for the funeral industry.
FifteenToes · 30/06/2021 21:09

@Justjoinedforthis

Labour need to refocus on workers’ rights (they are the Labour party after all) - speak up for the workers not the bosses.

You mean like banning zero hours contracts, or mandating union representatives on company boards? Both of which were in the 2017 and 2019 manifestos.
namcybotwinbloom · 30/06/2021 21:19

@the80sweregreat

A new party is needed.
Labour are pretty much on the back burner now on the back bench going nowhere :(


I agree.
FifteenToes · 30/06/2021 21:36

@Newrumpus

Wow FifteenToes - your assumptions about me though wrong are interesting.
The real reason I started the thread is because I think we are in a really interesting and challenging period of political realignment. Many traditional Labour voters have voted Conservative for the first time ever and having done so may be much harder for Labour to engage. I think this is challenging and also exciting. I can’t see Labour at the moment doing anything to suggest that they have understood that they need to reengage their traditional voters and this leaves the potential for a genuinely new and progressive movement to emerge.

Sorry, having reread your OP I see it isn't as inflammatory as I thought. I think I was riled by some other comments further down.

I just despair of this whole conversation. Fact is, the country IS more middle class now. The working class culture that created a Labour consensus large enough to form a majority in the 40s or 60s just isn't large enough to do that. So anything the Labour party does to court the social conservatism of that culture is going to simultaneously lose support from their other base among middle class urban professionals and young people. And vice versa. There was no better demonstration of this than the Brexit focus of the 2019 election, where Labour's unconvincing position on the issue perfectly illustrated the impossible task of trying to hold these two support bases together.

The ridiculous thing is that so much of this is so superficial. The WC want to stick it to the MC because they are peeved about superficial markers of class. They don't like being told how it is by people who went to university, people from London, progressives into identity politics. Where they do raise real substantial issues, apart from Brexit, these are invariably issues that are exactly the kinds of things Corbyn was bringing back to Labour (eg focus on workers' rights, above). But they couldn't vote for Corbyn because he comes from London and went to a grammar school. That's why they had to vote for Johnson instead, who went to that well known inner city comp called "Eton" and left at 16 to work down the mine.

That being the other ridiculous thing: You say Labout have to reform "their attitudes toward the working class", but what do you seriously think the Tories' attitudes toward the working class are? Blair and Brown may have been lukewarm on plenty of Labour values, but they did far more for working class people than the Tories have ever done. It just doesn't make any sense, and it makes a nonsense of the idea that that's the actual problem. You can't tell me the WC will only vote for a genuine WC individual who speaks for WC values, and that's why they voted for Boris Johnson and Jacob Rees Mogg.

Eventually the WC are going to have to suck it up and understand that they don't have the numbers to decide a whole party's culture any more. Or not. That understanding was able to be kicked into the long grass by the grand delusion that a Tory Brexit was going to solve all their problems. The Tories are masters at dividing people and galvanising them against a perceived enemy - the EU wasn't the first such target and I'm sure it won't be the last. The next one appears to be "The Woke", and judging by some of the threads on this very forum it looks like paying pretty good dividends. Brexit might not have delivered WC's dream jobs YET, but that's only because of all the employment quotas being filled by disabled trans lesbian muslims, right?
namcybotwinbloom · 30/06/2021 22:25

I agree it's as if there needs to be a middle party for people who are now "middle class"

I don't believe in class myself but there is a middle ground in between.

Justjoinedforthis · 01/07/2021 20:18

@FifteenToes yes exactly! I am talking about current leadership who seem to just be about supporting businesses, not sticking up for the workers

TrifleCat · 02/07/2021 12:42

FifteenToes

Your own assumptions and stereotyping of the working class are really not helping your argument.

I grew up in a WC environment, and most WC people want decent pay for an fairs day work, they want to improve their prospects and they want a nice community to live in, most WC people aren’t interested in socialist utopias and they certainly don’t need the liberal elite telling them how much nicer life will be for the WC under socialism.

Oh and for the record no one from the community I grew up with was racist, homophobic or thick.

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