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The Westminster Arms

877 replies

DustyDiamond · 31/01/2020 21:11

Shiny new thread 😍😍

The Westminster Arms:
A non-partisan politics pub-thread for varied political chit-chat & other such stuff

Cheers all 🍷

The Westminster Arms
OP posts:
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23
SingingLily · 04/02/2020 09:09

I hadn't realised that one could be imposed if there was no agreement, Scary. That fits with the EU ethos though. Well, they can't all win, can they? Although it is possible they could all lose.

Epic, have you ever seen a Mandarin typewriter? Such things did exist. Because the language is expressed in words as symbols rather by individual letters, the typewriters had an average of 8,000 keys - divided into columns by category. A speedy typist would average eight words a minute. By comparison, a speedy touch typist here would average 100 words a minute. Even then, the QWERTY keyboard was designed in that order to slow fast typists down...to stop old-fashioned metal keys from jamming up.

If you ever need someone to make up a quiz team, with specialist knowledge about dactylography...Smile

EpicIndividual · 04/02/2020 09:09

“you really can't expect any of the regulars in The Partisan Arms to agree with anything that you say at all. It is a closed shop of opinion.”

Followed by this.

“I read across a lot of the politics threads and only comment very occasionally, but it is very unusual to be accused of 'having a pop' because you don't agree with the general consensus.”

In what part of society, have you found, that introducing yourself to a group of people straight off the back of a generalised insult towards them, has been conducive to productive and engaging dialogue? ‘Genuine question’.

Gotta be honest, never found that myself, maybe I don’t get out enough. 🤷🏻‍♀️

EpicIndividual · 04/02/2020 09:12

As always, engage in good faith and we will engage in good faith. But we can read, so bear that in mind when you comment.

Anyway, that’s enough of that for now. I’m engaging the block button ❌ because I know the real intention here.

EpicIndividual · 04/02/2020 09:13

“Epic, have you ever seen a Mandarin typewriter? Such things did exist. Because the language is expressed in words as symbols rather by individual letters, the typewriters had an average of 8,000 keys - divided into columns by category.”

😱😱😱

SingingLily · 04/02/2020 09:15

I suspect they might already have checked out.

Although I'm a bit annoyed that they managed to scoff every last crumb on the breakfast tray. How inconsiderate.

I'll make some more. Grin

EpicIndividual · 04/02/2020 09:17

“I'll make some more. grin”

Hooray! 😂

Arseaboutdarkly · 04/02/2020 09:18

Well there you have it, Arse. Talking about politics (journalist issue from yesterday) on this politics thread is 'derailing'.

And Brexit doesn't count as politics and discussing it is just dredging up the past. It's nuts.

All the same Arkadas, I hope you will continue to post and that more of those with differing views from the prevailing one so far on here will come and post and make it a genuinely non-partisan thread.

I really think that is more and more important to make sure people don't just live in a bubble and see any dissent as an 'attack'. That's not healthy for anyone.

SingingLily · 04/02/2020 09:21

Typical! You slave over a hot stove and no sooner do you set the tray down on the bar when it all disappears again.

Sigh.

Back to the kitchen.

EpicIndividual · 04/02/2020 09:22

I’ve just had look a at the old Mandarin typewriter! Incredible!

The language must be so much more complex and developed than ours. Fascinating. 😊

Imagine finding the insult in a cryptic Mandarin crossword! It would be nigh on impossible! 😂

SingingLily · 04/02/2020 09:24

Imagine finding the insult in a cryptic Mandarin crossword! It would be nigh on impossible!

Oh, I'm quite sure they exist. In fact, they are probably fairly inventive and wickedly descriptive.

Oddly enough, I can think of one or two right now. Grin

ommmward · 04/02/2020 09:25

Arse did you miss my answers to your posts?

hospitalityinspector · 04/02/2020 09:34

Morning all. Mushrooms on toast are my very favourite Lily, though I only mainly have them in the Arms, not in reality. I keep buying mushrooms and using them up in a chicken dish or similar before they go off, rather than a planned meal.

RLB and if I'm honest, the rest of the candidates confuse me. I really don't have a clear idea of what they all want, as it seems to be a mish- mash of the same thing as what they already have. Sir Static, as a remainer and a fighter for FOM will not appeal to the red wall. Their painful move to conservatism was exactly for these reasons.

These heartland voters have changed. Many are professionals, with a hunger for knowledge, travel and are very engaged in politics. Until Labour and the media recognises this, instead of making a bee line for the stereotypical WC Labour voter to interview, they won't win them back.

A PP mentioned the duty of citizens not to blindly follow or turn deaf ears. I absolutely agree and what a perfect example of that when Labour constituencies for over a hundred years turned blue. No deaf ears there. They were switched on and turned away from Corbynism in their droves. That is citizenship holding a party and idealism to account and changing it.

I personally want to see robust opposition debates in parliament asap. It's painful to watch Corbyn squirming; even I feel sorry for him, because even anything important he has to say is now ignored.

I enjoy seeing robust debate here in the Arms too, and welcome opposition, more as a spectator than involved, as I don't possess the in- depth knowledge displayed by the regulars here, but I'm learning such a lot.

Arseaboutdarkly · 04/02/2020 09:35

ommmward

Sorry if I haven't responded - I didn't see you were posting to me. I haven't been back here long after a break, and wasn't on the other threads so you might be mixing me up?

Anyway, happy to have a to and fro! (tho i'm sneakily posting at work so there'll be gaps)

I think that's something open to question. There are those who don't see it as dangerous but are actively welcoming a shake up of the established order (the BBC, the lobby, the civil service, cabinet discipline, probably the Lords next). There are those who - as I said yesterday - decided that the alternatives at the last election were worse and held their nose to vote conservative. And there are those who are horrified that this brand of conservatism has won power.

I do get that, although i'm definitely in the 'horrified' camp and just don't understand the contradictions that have to be accepted to enable any rational person to vote for this government

I am not welcoming any 'shake-up' by the likes of Cummings as their intent is so clearly - and as you say intentionally clearly - malicious. I don't see it as progress that he is so blatant in his actions, I see it as a new sort of 'hiding in plain sight', everyone knows his name and knows he is pulling the strings, he just sort of dares anyone to challenge him and as he now operates at the highest level that is quite a daunting challenge to anyone.

scaryteacher · 04/02/2020 09:39

...

Hollycatberry · 04/02/2020 09:45

Well the charitableness is out in force! Its a pious mission, making sure people don't like in a bubble eh. Good job we have all these good Samaritans to point out our wrong thought, what we do without them? I mean, we might indulge in a bit of opinion, agreement, consensus, positivity and worse of all, get on with each other :D

Anyway, back to other matters. I thought the speeches about trade from BJ and EU were probably what I expected. Hardly going to start off super close and there's going to be a bit of bluster up front. Generally I feel quite positive that we are standing up and being a bit tougher in our rhetoric. I don't see this as a bad thing, the EU need a deal as well so there's plenty of mileage left in the talks to get to an agreement.

capx.co/how-the-uk-can-regain-control-and-get-a-good-deal-with-brussels/

EpicIndividual · 04/02/2020 09:57

@AutumnRose1

What other forums do you recommend for this discussion? I’m losing the will over here, there just aren’t enough user features available here to fairly navigate my way through this silliness.

scaryteacher · 04/02/2020 09:58

I thought Campbell et al were malicious, so it's nothing new. After all wasn't Mandelson dubbed ' the Prince of Darkness' as one of the first spin doctors?

scaryteacher · 04/02/2020 10:04

The bubble bit made me ROFL, given those of us,who voted Leave and Tory, were vilified for daring to point out that the liberal consensus bubble needed puncturing.

I bet if this thread were about the best way to make a cheese sauce, or to do French knots, then there wouldn't be the need to puncture the cheddar versus gruyere bubble for the sauce iyswim.

No contradictions about voting for this government Arse. Lib Dems impossible for Leavers, and frankly, anyone but Labour.

DustyDiamond · 04/02/2020 10:05

There are those who don't see it as dangerous but are actively welcoming a shake up of the established order (the BBC, the lobby, the civil service, cabinet discipline, probably the Lords next)

This describes me Ommm

And I agree about Cummings being much more transparent than his predecessors

He's very open about his ideas etc, and he's very, very good at applying (actually very basic) psychology strategies to campaigns & strategy

Across various Brexit Board threads over the course of last summer & beyond, quite a few posters observed correctly how he was shaping the discourse & narrative, whilst supposedly 'plugged-in' political pundits on MSM were flapping about spectacularly missing the obvious

Wrt the press? Well I think they've had a cosy cartel set up for far too long now 🤷🏻‍♀️

They need to genuinely hold all politicians & parties to account imo - not show bias & soft touch to favoured leaky 'sources', report on events instead of applying partisan spin, and not decide/agree as a group what 'lines to take' as a collective (how on earth can that approach be considered anywhere near to 'independent & free'?!)

I couldn't give a toss who is invited or otherwise to briefings - we're living in the 21st century, we're not at the mercy of limited information dissemination anymore
Not being invited into a press briefing does not tie the hands of the press or prevent them from reporting on stuff

This was part of an ongoing tantrum underway at the moment coz they're in a huff about their previous cliquey rug being pulled from under them 🤷🏻‍♀️

OP posts:
ommmward · 04/02/2020 10:08

Arse, I think the first job has to be to try to understand what people triangulated in order to vote for this government, because 43% of the electorate did.

This brand of conservatism has to be close enough to what traditional conservative voters recognise and value (and that's valid, I hope we will agree), while also appealing to enough traditional labour voters outside the big metropolitan areas (and yes, I appreciate that there was some very clever game theory stuff going on there, with many of those dropping labour for Brexit Party and getting conservative instead, but they will have known that was the risk in fptp and will have calculated that they were willing to let the conservative candidate slip through rather than vote labour).

Is it really really really so very different from conservative government flavours we've had before? I am not seeing a fundamental difference yet.

This is a long winded way of saying: there are honourable and valid reasons for voting for any party. We all do the balancing act of liking X policy, being willing to tolerate y, but z is a deal breaker.

Do you think the current conservative government is a genuine threat to democracy? At the moment I'm seeing it the other way round - Lindsay Hoyle (not part of the government but absolutely key to its operation of course) is significantly cleaning up parliament after bercow ran rough shod over convention. Recalibrating the relationship between parliament and the judiciary is also important (because that was significantly shifted in the last few years, breaking convention established over I don't know, 300 years or so?). And honouring the Brexit vote was crucial to restoring faith in democracy. It's really rubbish for over half the electorate to vote for something and then watch the establishment spend 3.5 years trying to wriggle out of enacting it - it's just rude!! I suspect the stuff with the media may be part of the same recalibration, though I don't yet understand what selective briefings is supposed to achieve. There has to be something in it that can be interpreted as honourable and reasonable, otherwise they wouldn't be doing it. I haven't worked that bit out yet.

I don't think Cummings is malicious, necessarily. I mean, what's the evidence that he's more malicious than mandelson or Campbell were? (did Cameron and May not have Rasputin advisors in the same way, or were they more subtle about it, or less effective?) I mean, if we accept that it's valid to be conservative or Conservative (which I think we should), then is Cummings trying to do something that undermines the conservatism that the country just voted for? If so, there's a problem. But if the criticism is that he's furthering a conservative agenda then I can't accept that, because a conservative agenda is what more people just voted for than voted for anything else.

Sorry for length of post.

DustyDiamond · 04/02/2020 10:11

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EpicIndividual · 04/02/2020 10:15

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ommmward · 04/02/2020 10:21

Cheddar not gruyère. Definitely.

There's definitely something funny going on with the press lobby (Guido Fawkes has been trying to undermine the cartel, with some success, and I suspect it's all part of the same thing). I think many of us simply watch parliament TV now for our political news, rather than switching on MSM to get selective quotation plus interpretative froth. PMQs is always sitting on YouTube within minutes of ending. There are a gazillion podcasters and bloggers who have time to really explore issues rather than being stuck in the formats of MSM. I'm really interested to see the way that MSM are moving into that world, but of course other people have already colonised much of it. Id rather listen to remaniacs (although there's too much gratuitous swearing) than to the today programme. I'd rather watch Triggernometry than GMB. The MSM are trying to catch up with the democratisation of information flow; their status as guardian of knowledge and interpretation is crumbling. And I know there's all sorts of nonsense circulating on the internet as well, but I'd rather have free speech so nonsense can be challenged, rather than some sort of paternalistic view that Real Journalists are more objective and trustworthy than anyone else.

SilverySurfer · 04/02/2020 10:23

Morning everyone. Totally agree with you Scary and Dusty that' it's time for a shake-up and there are other methods of communication in the 21st century.

howabout · 04/02/2020 10:25

Morning all. Brew
Mushrooms on sourdough are yum especially since I can't have them at home without provoking phobia in DH and DD1.

Silvery I am also severely limited in my emoji selection as I am also a laptop user. Sad

I agree with RLB having the problem of pivoting while keeping the membership on side. Same problem Sir S has and why I thought he did a good job yesterday but understand why others found him vague. Also bear in mind that, in theory at least, the Labour Party has a bottom up structure so it is not for the Leadership to dictate policy but rather to act as a channel to deliver the Party Vision.

I prefer Sir S as I get so fed up of Sir Keir's supposed supporters not being able to spell Keir. As a Scot it is second nature to me, although I can give you half a dozen variants of Ian, so it really highlights how far away from its roots the Labour Party currently is.

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