Labour’s u-turn on supporting the Brexit Referendum result.

[TheaSaurass]

Can anyone believe a policy this party campaigns on for votes at a general election?

Media supporters may call it a ‘shift’, but it’s a honking great u-turn, as weeks ago Corbyn on a Sunday political programme was asked to clarify Labour’s actual position (as attracted Leave and Remain votes at the last election) and he stated that Labour's position was that the UK WAS leaving the Single Market, otherwise we wouldn't be leaving.

And while the man currently setting Labour policy Keir Starmer says the time for “constructive ambiguity” is over this totally undermines the government’s position ahead of EU negotiations resuming next week.

Instead of getting on with Brexit, Labour will only support a transitional period from 2021 to 2023 (leaving open the option to stay in for good), so while May did not get the election result she wanted, who can say she wasn’t right not to trust a parliamentary Labour Party pretending they supported Brexit, to get government legislation through parliament.

Clearly they NOW feel there are more votes for leaving the question if we leave the EU, open.

“Labour makes dramatic shift on Brexit and single market”

”Labour is to announce a dramatic policy shift by backing continued membership of the EU single market beyond March 2019, when Britain leaves the EU, establishing a clear dividing line with the Tories on Brexit for the first time.”

”In a move that positions it decisively as the party of “soft Brexit”, Labour will support full participation in the single market and customs union during a lengthy “transitional period” that it believes could last between two and four years after the day of departure, it is to announce on Sunday.”

”This will mean that under a Labour government the UK would continue to abide by the EU’s free movement rules, accept the jurisdiction of the European court of justice on trade and economic issues, and pay into the EU budget for a period of years after Brexit, in the hope of lessening the shock of leaving to the UK economy. In a further move that will delight many pro-EU Labour backers, Jeremy Corbyn’s party will also leave open the option of the UK remaining a member of the customs union and single market for good, beyond the end of the transitional period.”

”The decision to stay inside the single market and abide by all EU rules during the transitional period, and possibly beyond, was agreed after a week of intense discussion at the top of the party. It was signed off by the leadership and key members of the shadow cabinet on Thursday, according to Starmer’s office.”

no Idea what the current government are proposing then? apart from more austerity of course - tories are great at sticking to failed policies, monetarism, ems, austerity and it appears they are still backing trump.

It is tiresome to hear yet again the canard of the 'mess labour left behind' it's been thoroughly debunked too many times to repeat as op's ilk just don't accept sober analysis.

• how about the mess cameron/Osborne left behind, the mess that may is about to leave - anything good to say about that?

some deluded thoughts that they actually WON the general election,

A bit like the deluded Brexiteers who think they have a landslide majority and everyone else should just shut up and love it.

And the deluded notion that democracy ended last June.

This is a big decision and transition for this country. It MUST be challenged, scrutinised and questioned at every move. All the other laws are.

The EU's plan is obviously to say no point blank to all the UK suggests, until we either cave and remain or walk away. They're not planning to "negotiate" in any way as far as I can see, so I think we should just go for hard Brexit immediately and take it from there. The sooner we leave, the sooner we can focus on what's next for our country and get on with it. The EU will continue its agenda of ever-closer union by stealth (an anthem, flag, "citizens", tax system, army...) until it's a superstate, which is why it blanks and gaslights anything which challenges that. Or it will fail and fall apart as people see what has happened. Let's leave them to it, and move on.

I'm amazed at how dated your post sounds, A4Document. It's making me all nostalgic for the heady days of the Referendum.

It's pretty much a condensed repetition of so many things we heard on here back then.

What strikes me most is that so many people who supposedly espouse a Leave position no longer really believe a lot of that.

I think TheaSaurass and troops are getting a bit nervous about the possibility that Brexit is ever-so-gradually beginning to lose its grip on the public imagination.

Talking about changing minds .... the Tory manifesto in 2015 contained a commitment to the single market.

I would observe that Labour's shift is rather unsurprising, given that at least two thirds of Labour voters are remainers, as are most of its MPs.

I don't think Corbyn cares that much either way - he is eurosceptic but not euro-obsessive. Most of his hardcore support comes from remain-voting demographics anyway.

I think it's fair to observe that a lot of diehard Brexiters seem very spooked at the thought of any suggestion that it might not happen in the way they had envisaged. It's like a panic.

But there was never a coherent plan for it anyway. Maybe that's where the Brexiters' panic comes from though - they're having the constructions in their own minds toyed with.

What do you think the diehard Brexiters wanted? Closer links with the US is all I can think of - quite happy to be a de facto 51st state, but not part of a union on their own continent. Smashing the NHS for a starter, most definitely not what the red bus promised.

Apparently the French are the first of many members, getting fed up with the EU Negotiators/Brussels position - issuing their demands that cannot be met UNTIL trade is discussed.

The EU desperate for cash, effectively demanding a £££ divorce PREMIUM to what we actually owe FOR future trade when only want to talk about trade at the END, isn't effective, mature, negotiation tactics - its closer to a High Street brick-through-the-window 'smash and grab'.

How on earth can the UK pay a premium NOW, for what we don't know we'll get at the end?

So a commercially aware government can never accept that, and I suspect the other EU members are seeing that; they tried it on and was told to FRO, so thinking lets base mutually beneficial future relations, with mutual respect.

Now while I cannot see this full article, it would appear Labour is waving the UK white flag, to an EU Negotiator being slapped and told to get real.

"EU could be open to Brexit climbdown over trade talks amid revolt led by France."

Talk about (incompetent) t-t-t-t-timing.

How on earth can the UK pay a premium NOW, for what we don't know we'll get at the end?

There is one simple answer to that "How": We can end up paying a premium - almost certainly for less than we have now - because the piss-poor tossers that voted Leave voted for it.

You're a Leave voter. You should know the answer yourself, FGS.

We are going to be the first country in history that voted for a self-appointed vassal status.

The Leave vote have voted away the UK's formerly strong world position.

And you can't claim it is the EU that did that.

The Leave campaign and Leave voters did it.

Own your own mess. Or sort it out. Stop whining that it's always someone else's problem.

Own your own mess. Or sort it out. Stop whining that it's always someone else's problem

This with bells on! You voted for this mess and seem to want those who didn't want it to support you and sort it all out.

God yes, stop whining, Brexiters, that's it's all gone horribly wrong. We told you it would. You listened to that wazzock Boris instead.

I think it's fair to observe that a lot of diehard Brexiters seem very spooked at the thought of any suggestion that it might not happen in the way they had envisaged. It's like a panic.
Pretty much. What should really have happened is that we negotiates a leave deal and then put the deal vs remain on the table to the British public so at everyone knew what they were voting for.

But there was never a coherent plan for it anyway.
You mean vague statements about 'taking back control' were more about pandering to some glory days of empire than political solutions?! Who'd have thought?
Maybe that's where the Brexiters' panic comes from though - they're having the constructions in their own minds toyed with
Each person who voted brexit voted for the version of brexit they had in their heads. Now it turns out that brexit isnt going to be this amazing solution that fits the ideals of each individual voter people are getting annoyed 'because that's not what I voted for'

Apparently the French are the first of many members, getting fed up with the EU Negotiators/Brussels position

Appears to be fake news made up by the Telegraph - French media people saying that the Elysée has denied this. No trade talks until "sufficient progress" on the other issues.

The UK might actually have an argument worth making here, in the sense that some brexit scenarios (eg an EEA/EFTA end-point) would simplify the Irish issues, give clarity to EU citizens, and presumably reduce liabilities by permitting ongoing participation in some programmes - ie there is a link between the ultimate trade relationship and the initial negotiating points. But the ridiculous grandstanding and footstamping and timewasting doesn't help them make their case.

thecatfromjapan

I have answered all your twaddle on the first few pages.

But as to "owning our own mess", remainers ARE the mess.

Trade wise, it is not only mutually beneficial for the CURRENT trade deals between the EU and UK to be adhered to as close as possible, the EU substantially sells more goods to us than we do to them in CASH terms

It is the Westminster Opposition parties siding with the EU position that will cause problems, not only for our negotiating position, but with ANY deal going through Westminster.

Remainers and opposition MPs would gladly say yes to ANYTHING the EU demanded to stay in a club selling far more to us, than we do to them (and have had twice our unemployment rates);

• "Pay a Euro 100 bil (their own court ruled unenforceable)" -

How would you like it Mr Barnier, with interest?

• "Allow the ECJ to rule over our courts on their citizens in perpetuity when Europe (who tells us when we are out of the EU, we are out) does not have that arrangement with any other large country-"

Is there anything else, Mr Barnier, who said they only want it now as it presently exists.

• "The Irish solution must not put in jeopardy the 'peace process', but the EU wants borders and the UK doesn't.-"

Shall we build a honking great wall in Ireland Mr Barnier, like the one Mr Trump wants to build between the U.S. and Mexico, or more like Chinas?

The EU's opening positions were meant to subjugate the UK, not to attempt to reach a mutually respectful deal, as Brussels is a POLITICAL machine, not an ECONOMIC machine - hence it has taken Euro 2 trillion of QE money printing since 2015 to get their sclerotic ex Germany Eurozone economies going.

If Remainers looked more at the ongoing problems of the EU, including becoming a Federal States of Europe, run by Brussels, with member states losing the power of veto (as currently planned) - maybe you would just keep looking for faults with the UK - where so many EU citizens wanted to come, as there were more opportunities here, than there.

I don't trust it myself. It's come from Starmer, not the leader's office, so the narrative can change depending on audience. Remainer? Here's a half-hint to stay in the EU. Brexiteer? Labour is demonstrably pro-leave. More cynical attempts at manipulation from what was once a decent political party. Not that the Tories are any better. What happened to politics? There must be better than this shower we have now.

Mistigri

"Apparently the French are the first of many members, getting fed up with the EU Negotiators/Brussels position"

"Appears to be fake news made up by the Telegraph - French media people saying that the Elysée has denied this. No trade talks until "sufficient progress" on the other issues."

I know Europhiles just cannot fathom that EU businesses want as much 'certainty' of future conditions as UK businesses over the next 3-5 years - but obviously that is how all businesses function, especially with shareholders who want ANSWERS.

Clearly the EU Negotiating position is just 'road to final deal' stupid, as I have alluded to in several posts on this thread - as the UK cannot fully assess Irish borders or UK-EU future trade and relationships WITHOUT knowing what trade will look like at the end.

So it is highly conceivable that EU company pressure, or just member states seeing the EU Negotiators are piss-balling about trying to get in opening demands what we cannot commercially give them.

So France looking to make domestic labour reforms, with unemployment finally under 10%, with a new President's 'Approval Rating' falling LOWER than President Hollandes first 3-months before him - WANTING certainty as a State and for the companies within is hardly likely to be 'made up'.

And even IF it was, when the largest Westminster Opposition Party says it is not only siding with EU Negotiators, but open to STAYING in the EU beyond a 2023 'transition period', the Elysee would say that, wouldn't they?

Labour has just joined their side at a key time in the Brexit battle when the EU's negotiating position was an unforced lemon, and what did Napoleon say, something like 'give me lucky generals over good generals' .

From Venezuela to France, there will be governments shouting 'viva Le or El Presedente Corbyn', or something like that lol

Thea your source is one British newspaper with a poor record on reporting French political news (actually it's unfair to single out the Torygraph: the only UK paper which reports accurately on French news is the FT). If you want to comment on French news, you need to learn some French.

Note: I'm an actual French speaker working for a European business ...

www.theguardian.com/world/2017/aug/27/french-president-macrons-popularity-slumps-again

Yep, the Guardians pretty shit too Misti.

You said this earlier,

"I would observe that Labour's shift is rather unsurprising, given that at least two thirds of Labour voters are remainers, as are most of its MPs"

Did you simply mistranslate this, or were you intentionally spouting misinformation? The poll youre refering to was of Labour Party members, not voters. I fear, yet again, youre about to be seriously dissappointed

The dip in Macron's approval ratings almost certainly has nothing to do with the EU. The point Misti was disagreeing with was to do with the EU. Your newspaper link has nothing about the EU in it.

About two thirds of 2015 Labour voters voted remain - do you have a source that suggests otherwise?

It's not rocket science - Labour vote heavily concentrated in cities; big cities voted remain. Some of the London constituencies with large Labour majorities had a remain vote of over 75%.

Labour's problem is that it has a lot of marginal constituencies which voted leave, but leavers are still a minority of Labour voters.

And no, I don't think the Guardian's reporting on Europe is very good. As I said above, get your French news from the FT, which has some good European correspondants, or (better) read it in the original.

YouGov and Lord Ashcroft polls suggest that the majority of Labour voters voted Remain.

Oh damn!

Just when the Tory government were doing their level best to make the UK into another North Korea!

No wonder Leavers don't like 'experts'.

Experts tend to be trained, accountable, professional - verify sources and use actual, real facts.