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Politics

Could somebody explain why Corbyn shouldn't be voted for as Labour party leader?

710 replies

Myturnnow4 · 12/08/2015 15:53

I've listened to people argue this, but haven't heard a reasoned argument yet. The main criticism appears to be, "he's on the left" but don't go on to explain why that in itself is a bad thing.

OP posts:
squidzin · 13/08/2015 14:29

Utter BS HypnoRabbit you must believe everything you read i despair! and please RTFT

squidzin · 13/08/2015 14:33

Actually I'll rephrase myself HypnoRabbit you must believe some very specific weird stuff.

hypnoticrabbit · 13/08/2015 14:36

Why is it bullshit? Raed Salah did call the Jews (not Israelis) "bacteria" and Corbyn has admitted being friends with him. Unless you think calling Jews "bacteria" isn't racist Hmm?

BabyGanoush · 13/08/2015 14:50

I think Corbyn is good news for the labour party, and good news for politics in the UK.

If you looked at the line up of Clegg, Miliband and Cameron it immediately strikes you they are all pretty much of a muchness. White men in their 40s from a privileged background, with similar educations...

Then Farage and Sturgon came snd shook things up. Now Corbyn arrives.

Clearly voters are excited by REAL people, who may occasionally make gaffes, but mostly a new breed of politicians who have the courage of their convictions, who still believe in ideas and are not just in politics for personal gain (power, money).

I think Corbyn will make Labour refocus and regroup.

I respect him a hell of a lot more than all those wet wimpy Labour MP's who abstained from voting on the wellfare bill.

squidzin · 13/08/2015 14:53

Are you on a deliberate wind up?

Please find evidence that is not related to the "Friends from Hamas" speech introduction at the peace negotiation meeting.

squidzin · 13/08/2015 14:54

(To hypnosisrabbit)

squidzin · 13/08/2015 14:54

RTFT!

RedRowanBerries · 13/08/2015 15:23

I would assume J Corbyn considers supporters of Palestinians as friends, wouldn't he? He's certainly not going to be a supporter of the Israeli State ime.

Would I be wrong? (i.e. is he unlike any UK leftist person I've ever met?)

Is he still anti-nuclear everything (including power) ?

squidzin · 13/08/2015 15:30

He is a pacifist. A supporter of negotiating peace. Whoever you are.

RedRowanBerries · 13/08/2015 15:37

To my mind being a pacifist is a disqualifier from being a country's leader.

squidzin · 13/08/2015 15:48

Why?

RedRowanBerries · 13/08/2015 15:56

A pacifist has renounced the possibility of warfare. Come to think of it they have renounced the possibility of actively defending the country against an attack. Negotiation only occurs when both sides have something to lose ime.

caroldecker · 13/08/2015 16:00

Corbyn is speaking at Building solidarity for National Rights later this month. This is organised by Middle East monitor, a Palastinian pressure group.
The Director of this Group, Dr Daud Abdullah, has been pulled by Hazel Blears for signing a document saying he wanted to kill Jews and British soldiers BBC article

If he is not anti-semitic, he spends a lot of time with and representing people who are.

squidzin · 13/08/2015 16:02

Pacifism sees warfare as a last resort, i.e. only to be used in defense in case of attack.

Pacifism doesn't steam in full force into other countries for no reason.

Pacifism looks to other forms of negotiation and mediation.

Violence and human cost as an ultimate last and final option.

squidzin · 13/08/2015 16:04

He is a mediator. He spends a lot of time speaking to lots of people on all sides.

RedRowanBerries · 13/08/2015 16:04

I have to say I've never heard a pacifist say they believed in violence as an ultimate option.

GinandJag · 13/08/2015 16:05

Please vote for him, if you are eligible. :)

RedRowanBerries · 13/08/2015 16:06

All sides? Grin

I am cynical about that, but like I say I'm a veteran of leftist politics of the 80s and studiously avoid all contact for the sake of my temper!

claig · 13/08/2015 16:13

Corbyn represents the biggest shift in the public mood ever. Bookies are set to lose money in the biggest political odds change ever - from 100-1 to odds on favourite.

This is a historic shift in public opinion and not one of the great and good understands it because not one of them understands what the public really thinks of them.

Here is Michael Crick of Channel 4 News

"Corbynmania is a far, far bigger phenomenon than entrism. Nobody fully understands what’s going on. It’s a fascinating development in public opinion, linked to the rise of the Greens, the SNP and even Ukip. But if you concentrate on entrism, you’re missing the much bigger picture, and a quite extraordinary story".

blogs.channel4.com/michael-crick-on-politics/entrism-small-part-jeremy-corbyns-rise/5050

And here is the BBC trying to answer the question every one of the great and good is asking

"Where is Labour's 'Jeremy Corbyn mania' coming from?
...
When he eventually makes it indoors he's mobbed by photographers, rapturous applause and the sounds of John Legend's contemporary protest song, Glory, thundering over the PA.

This is slicker, more vibrant and just plain bigger than anything left-leaning party politics has seen in Britain for a generation. Even Corbyn looks a bit surprised. As if this campaign has gone further than anyone could have predicted.

So what exactly is going on?
...
Much of the Labour establishment has been caught completely off-guard by the strength of Corbyn's support.
...
There is evidence to suggest the political landscape in Britain is shifting and Corbyn's recent success could be accredited to his core message connecting with an electorate to whom the "centre ground" no longer appeals.
...
"Voters are not asking themselves, 'Where is Jeremy Corbyn on the left-right dimension?' They're asking themselves: 'Is this guy saying something which is new which might help me and deal with the problems that Britain faces?'
...
Prof Whitely explains: "The world has changed, there's no question about it. We have to learn from countries in continental Europe who have multi-party systems.

"The success of UKIP and the SNP show there is discontentment with the status quo and an appetite for new ideas. A lot of people inside the Westminster bubble are yet to catch up with this."

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33881104

This a fantastic moment in British politics. Everyone thought the British people were sleeping, allowing this great and good to ruin the country. But the people have woken up, they are back and the robotic, undemocratic, spinnng elites who are already talking of coups to ditch Corbyn are finally on the way out.

squidzin · 13/08/2015 16:17

Only Corbyn is the "ultimate" option! Grin

Redkite2015 · 13/08/2015 16:43

The point is JC is different. The rest are more of the same. People appreciate that JC will bring in different policies and may be because of JC, the current government would be less radical. At next election, people would have choice - not same policies in different envelopes.

Paulina with privileged background, HH has so far run Labour as Tory-light, agreeing to whatever is coming from the government. AB, YC and LK would do the same.

CU proved to be a choker. Didn't want to put his hat in the ring, as with not much different to offer than Conservatives, he too would have been replaced in 2020. He seems to be waiting for his time after 2020 - a choker like Shirley Williams.

JC is by default the alternative - people's candidate. He looks like winning with wide margin. I think now Blairites would urge two of the three candidates to withdraw and make the contest One to One. Let us see who runs against JC.

Pneumometer · 13/08/2015 17:22

At next election, people would have choice

They would indeed.

Corbyn's 10/1, 11/1 if you shop around, to be next Prime Minister (I suspect they mean "next Prime Minister elected" because if Cameron steps down as he claims he will, the next PM will be either Osborne or May in the run up to the next GE). It'll be interesting to see how many of his fans are willing to put their money where their mouth is.

In face of that, the odds on the Conservatives getting the most seats at the next GE look generous, even at 3/1 on.

merrymouse · 13/08/2015 17:31

But leaving aside Corbyn, would the odds be any better for any of the other candidates?

People don't want more Blair - they might in a decade or so when he is sufficiently forgotten, but it really isn't clear that people have an appetite now for a Centralist Labour party.

Pneumometer · 13/08/2015 17:42

People don't want more Blair

Or so the received wisdom has it. One could argue that they in fact voted for more Blair, in the shape of David Cameron.

it really isn't clear that people have an appetite now for a Centralist Labour party.

It's very hard to see how you argue that the electorate gave a majority (a majority, for fuck's sake) to the Tories as a protest against the Labour Party not being left wing enough.

It is still very hard to see a better analysis than Jonathan Freedland's from a few weeks ago:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/08/george-osborne-budget-stole-labours-election-promises-living-wage

Of course, like every budget, this one has losers. They include the aspirant poor and young who will now lose their student maintenance grant – and will have to rack up yet more debt if they want a higher education – as well as the minimum wage worker who’s younger than 25. The disabled person who’s deemed not quite disabled enough will now lose around £30 a week, as she or he is downgraded to ordinary jobseeker’s allowance. Public sector workers will have to make do with a 1% pay rise for the next four years, just as they have for the last three. Given the way inflation is expected to rise, that translates into a pay cut for those on the public payroll. And woe betide the child luckless enough to be born third or fourth into a poorer family after 2017. There’ll be no more public cash for them.

Osborne is not bothered by any of that. The losers can go crying to Labour. The way Osborne sees it, Labour can go right ahead and be the party of losers, of benefit claimants and whinging state employees. Knock yourself out, says the chancellor. That would leave the Tories as the workers’ party, Labour as the welfare party. Labour would be noisy and passionate, leading a thousand heartfelt marches against “the cuts” – and nicely on course for yet another election defeat. All the rest of the political terrain would belong to the Conservatives.

It distresses me beyond words, as both a head and heart Labour voter, that this is true. I voted for the "Longest Suicide Note in History" in 1983 and I suspect that, were it on offer again (with the insanity about the EEC/EU removed) I might vote for it again, and had I been a member of the Labour Party I would have voted for Bennite candidates.

But the result of that ideological purity was Thatcher, with a massively increased majority, putting to the sword unions, industry and the heartlands of this country. That manifesto was not only impossible, but resulted in the devastation of this country. Would a Healyite Labour Party have done the same? No, it wouldn't. I didn't pay the price of decadent, self-indulgent posturing: I was an undergraduate in a shortage subject at a good university, and after I graduated I had a very nice job thank you very much. But the result of that moment of purity was eleven more years of Tory misrule, in which people less fortunate than me - miners, shipbuilders, public sector workers, children in secondary education - were completely fucked over. Those of us that supported "real" Labour in 1983 should reflect on what the consequences of that decision were.

Pneumometer · 13/08/2015 17:43

eleven more years of Tory misrule

Fourteen more years of Tory misrule. Fucking Tories even taxed me on my years.

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