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Politics

Natter for labour party members

128 replies

YeOldeTrout · 22/07/2015 20:43

Who are you minded to vote for? How have you decided?

Leader & deputy leader.
I can't make up my mind. The commentators seem to say things about each candidate that are quite different from the impressions I get.

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Alyosha · 09/08/2015 14:20

So that's a yes then. If you want to wrap yourself in conspiracy theories similar to holocaust deniers do so - but Serbians (and Croatians as Bosnians) committed awful war crimes, which have been exceptionally well documented on camera and in the mass graves where bodies are still being found.

If it makes you feel better to pretend the war was about Serbians submitting to world capitalism rather than the very obvious real reason (which Sebians made no effort to hide!) of Serbians wanting a racially and religiously pure society then so be it. In my mind someone who thinks in terms of "all socialist leaders = good" is a dangerous person indeed.

What is it with all this whataboutism? Yes TB did bad things no that doesn't excuse Gorbyn from supporting murrderous dictatorships, no matter how "socialist" they were.

misspriggy · 09/08/2015 17:23

"all socialist leaders = good" I can't recall Corbyn, or myself saying that on this thread! 'Conspiracy theories'. I assume that applies to those that don't accept the Goodies V Baddies narrative that you seem to have swallowed?

The point (that seems to have gone over your head) is that the West's heroic allies, The KLA's murderous record was set aside and not that the Serbs' had no blood on their hands. The British foreign secretary, Robin Cook, even told them The KLA, to call him any time on his mobile phone.

The US ensured that the struggling Yugoslav economy was denied World Bank loans and put in Nato in as an enforcer. Is this a figment of my imagination too? The Spanish forensic teams "a semantic pirouette by the war propaganda machines" denouncement of NATO? I'm reading too much into that no doubt? As is The FBI, Carla Del Ponte, the Wall Street Journal (who led their own investigation and concluded that 'mass graves' and 'rape factories' were lies. In fact most of the killings were in areas the KLA were active), and all the other deluded Lefties?

2% of Nato's missiles hit actual military targets; the rest hit hospitals, schools, factories, churches and broadcasting studios. Well documented facts actually (Google them up), not as you'd like to think "conspiracy theories".

And how's this for 'whataboutism'? At the '99 Kosovo "peace" conference in France, the Serbs were told to accept occupation by Nato forces and a market economy, or be bombed into submission. Which they did of course (illegally and without U.N cover. Who needs them. Not your grinning, bloodthirsty pal that's for sure.) As it turned out the perfect precursor to the bloodbaths in Afghanistan and Iraq.. I've imagined all that too no doubt?..

BTW if you have evidence of genocide in Kosovo, apart from Blair soundbites and Murdoch newspaper headlines. I suggest you share it with those involved in the 2000 International War Crimes Tribunal and the FBI who forensically examined Kosovo for weeks and called it the "the largest crime scene in the FBI's forensic history", because they never found any.

As a PS. About Blair's assertion that invading countries and killing innocent people did not increase the threat of terrorism at home and abroad? Now my sixth sense tells me you go along with that too, am I wrong? Anyway Serbia aside, just about how many people do you suppose Milosevic killed anyway up against the slaughter Blair and Bush unleashed in the Middle East alone?

Damn that Corbyn though.

Goodness me this is time consuming. I realise your ego will insist on you having the last word so away ye go -

BreakWindandFire · 09/08/2015 20:54

There's an article on mass graves in the Observer today.

There's also a reasonably good wiki on the massacres of the conflict which is clear that all sides were involved, but that the Serbs committed the majority of atrocities.

gingercat12 · 12/08/2015 22:09

Not to derail the subject, but I will vote for Yvette Cooper. Her campaign is not nearly as good Jeremy Corbyn's, but her record on analysing the effect of cuts and her sensibility make me choose her.

My friends (who I thought were staunch Corbyn-supporters) will all vote for Andy Burnham. I like him, but I think being a professional northerner is just not enough to get Labour back into power.

Not decided on deputy yet, they all seem quite good.

Re Serbia, please, do not forget that Central-Eastern-Southern Europe is a lot more historically rich and diverse place than Western powers (i.e. French and English) credit them for. Bombing them into the Middle ages or using your child's doodles as new borders are hardly ever the answers. Just think of Iraq or Afghanistan. Bosnia is apparently Isis's new target, and the divide amongst neighbouring nations are deeper than ever. TB is my hero (still), but I will never forgive him and Hungarian PM Orban for bombing innocent civilians.

EElisavetaOfBelsornia · 14/08/2015 20:21

I agree with you Chablis, the vitriol with which different factions of the party attack each other, leaving the Tories to ravage the country at will is depressing. I haven't posted on here since saying I would like to vote for a woman, and immediately being called Blairite (for the hard of thinking, Blair is a man). I intend to vote for Corbyn, but whichever candidate becomes leader, I will be out leafleting and canvassing, and thereby earning the contempt of a chunk of MN. (Though if it's Kendall I might have more lie ins of a weekend).

gingercat12 · 14/08/2015 22:55

Elisaveta I will be out canvassing no matter which candidate wins, too.

YeOldeTrout · 23/08/2015 22:03

argh, I still haven't decided who to vote for. Only that I'm not voting for Corbyn at all.

argh.

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YeOldeTrout · 24/08/2015 12:32

I've done it, voted I mean, preferences in this order:
Kendall Cooper Burnham &
Creasy Bradshaw Flint Eagle

Anyone else who actually gets to vote, want to share?

Oh well, when Corbyn & Watson when I will have clear reasons for not renewing membership, I suppose.

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gingercat12 · 25/08/2015 16:52

YeOldeTrout I voted Cooper, Burnham, and I can't remember the rest. Then Bradshaw, Creasy, Eagle.

Does anybody think there will be a legal challenge after the vote? I might try to go to the last televised hustings next week to see if the relationship among the candidates changed.

Are Tories really voting for Labour leader you think? I am pretty politically active, canvassing even on election day till 7pm, but it would not occur to me to vote for the Conservative leader. Are these mythical shy Tory voters this committed even in the middle of the summer holidays?

YeOldeTrout · 25/08/2015 21:13

Who knows re Tories paying 3 quid to vote.

I reckon Labour party should shut up with legal challenges & so on. Let the election run its course. Then in next Parliament every MP votes according to conscience & ignores the whips. No need to threaten secession. Corbyn's position will become untenable. JC will moan about nobody playing ball & the MPs can shrug & say they just did as he used to do. In 18 months the rules can be quietly changed to make it harder for infiltrators & someone like Jarvis can swoop in to be coronated.

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gingercat12 · 26/08/2015 09:08

Sounds like a plan to me.

gingercat12 · 03/09/2015 17:31

At hustings. I have voted already, but want to see in person how recent events changed their views.

claig · 03/09/2015 18:26

Labour leadership debate on Sky News starting at 18.30 ending at 21.00 today

gingercat12 · 03/09/2015 18:34

I know I am there.

claig · 03/09/2015 18:40

So you are in Gateshead Smile
Corbyn, the people's candidate, was seen entering the building and the Establishment candidates arrived too. Great stuff, let the games begin, let's see who is still standing at the end.

claig · 03/09/2015 18:50

gingercat12, are there real socialists outside the hall generously handing out free earmuffs to the audience to block out the think tank generated spin of the Establishment candidates?

claig · 03/09/2015 18:58

Sky reporting that Corbyn received a hero's welcome as he stepped out of his cab. No mention of the reception received by the Establishment trio, no idea whether rotten tomatoes were involved or not.

claig · 03/09/2015 19:15

Yvette hopeless. Wants councils to come forward and say how many refugees they are willing to take. She urges people to "contact their councils" and urge them to help. That is not leadership. Liz Kendall rightly said we need leadership from the Prime Minister. Burnham also sounded like a leader and said he would take charge. Waiting for councils to suggest how many they can take is not leadership, it is nonsense.

gingercat12 · 03/09/2015 19:52

I am quite impressed by Yvette actually. I was in studio, so not sure about welcome

claig · 03/09/2015 19:54

Sky half-time poll
"Who do you think is winning?"

Corbyn 75.6%
Kendall 9.1%
Cooper 6%
Burnham 9.3%

I would agree with that. Cooper is doing very badly, doesn't sound confident or real.

squidzin · 03/09/2015 20:25

Fucking wow.

squidzin · 03/09/2015 20:26

In a good way.

HamaTime · 03/09/2015 20:31

Anyone else not got their ballot yet? I re-applied on sept 1st, like they said...

Fucking Hell he's on 84% now!!!!!!!

claig · 03/09/2015 20:37

Cooper threw everything she had at Corbyn with a desperate, whining, pleading think type type argument against People's QE. She failed miserably. Corbyn remained calm and unscathed. Cooper's advisers must now be desperate, all their plans have failed. Audience applauding Corbyn wildly. It's all over. Corbyn to be leader. Establishment in meltdown as their three candidates failed to stop or even dent Corbyn.

claig · 03/09/2015 20:40

Blair possibly now hitting the bottle as he can't understand what the hell is going on and how the people have abandoned his "vision", the people don't want to take his "journey".