Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Politics

East/West divide

46 replies

Xenia · 15/08/2012 08:02

In today's Times - one of the best articles I have read on the subject (about why the West is finding it hard to compete with China and what we will need to do to improve things).

www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/columnists/article3507936.ece

OP posts:
niceguy2 · 15/08/2012 10:16

Since the 1950s, the UK economy has quadrupled but welfare spending is up tenfold. Entitlements will have to be cut. We all want a compassionate society that helps the disadvantaged but if it is done in unaffordable ways there will be no money for any benefits.

I think this sums up what I've been trying to say for ages in a easy to digest paragraph.

claig · 15/08/2012 10:45

Never mind the East/West divide, there's a paywall/non-paywall divide, and I find myself on the wrong side. I can't read all about it in the Times. Fortunately the people's paper is available to all, so to be on the ball I shall repair without fail to the online pages of the Daily Mail.

claig · 15/08/2012 10:58

'Since the 1950s, the UK economy has quadrupled but welfare spending is up tenfold.'

Yes, but that could just show that the rich have got richer and that there are more people who need welfare. It could be that social mobility has declined and bankers' bonuses have soared, but ordinary workers have had their rights curtailed and living standards reduced.

You only have to read the Daily Mail to see evidence of the increasing number of prospering fat cats; I don't think the answer for the poor is more welfare cuts.

claig · 15/08/2012 11:05

Newsnight reported last night about "zero hour contracts". Is that what some people want us to do? Is that their solution? Someone's having a laugh and the joke is on the people. What do they want us to do, tear up all our rights and start all over again from year zero with a zero hour contract and zero in the bank? Do they really think that little of us, are we just numbers and zeroes?

claig · 15/08/2012 11:28

Internships, volunteering, working for free, zero hour contracts, cuts in wages, loss of rights, working age extended. It's a tragedy for the people of a great nation.

Why don't they spend a fraction of the quantitative easing that they have made available to banks, on regeneration and public works? Why don't they do what our great Victorian ancestors did? Invest in the future, rebuild and regenerate, stop the decline, reverse the downturn and end the degeneration.

Look to the stars while fixing the leaking water pipes and upgrading the sewers. The glass is half full, not empty, this is a land of plenty for the few, let's wisely invest our pennies and make it better for the many.

claig · 15/08/2012 11:34

East/West divide? There's a rich/poor divide and the gulf is getting bigger.

niceguy2 · 15/08/2012 11:58

I don't think you can address this issue by looking at our economy and turning it into a rich/poor thing.

We're comparing economies and the simple fact is that we cannot compete. The rich/poor divide is even greater in China anyway.

The inescapable fact is that China is cheaper, has many more workers and churning out a better educated and better motivated workforce than Europe is doing.

Our advantage at the moment is our creative arts and high tech industries. We should be investing in them heavily.

And I agree that longer term our wages will drop but then China's will rise. At some point there will be an equilibrium.

claig · 15/08/2012 12:22

China has done very well partly because many Western companies source components and manufacturing from China in order to keep product prices low and to increase profits.

The answer is not to cut our wages and long fought for benefits and create zero hour contracts. The answer is investment in our people and our future. We need better education, not more expensive barriers to education. We need less mickey mouse and more focussed quality. We need a National Investment Bank, we need a National Plan for Growth. We need money given to top PhDs and scientists to create new inventions. Just like the French planned and built an Ariane rocket, the TGV and an Airbus, so we need to think big too.

Cuts, cuts, cuts as a policy is starting to look nuts. Soon there'll be nothing left to cut, and then what will they do?

It's about partnership, about treating people with respect, not a zero hour contract saying come in in two hour's time, we've got 3 hours work for you.

You reap what you sow, you have to invest and plant seeds in order to grow.

niceguy2 · 15/08/2012 12:35

I think we all agree that investment is much needed. It's where we invest and where the money comes from which will be the challenge.

We don't need to cut wages....it will happen anyway. It's the law of supply & demand. Right now many people including myself haven't had a payrise for several years. This is in effect a paycut thanks to inflation and assuming the chinese wages are increasing, the gap is closing (albeit a tiny bit).

But this is no different to what happened in India. Years ago it was financially a no brainer to create your call centres in India. Thanks to years of booming growth and rampant wage increases, whilst the labour costs £ for £ are still way lower, by the time you add on top the infrastructure/management costs, it's sometimes cheaper to have your call centre in the UK.

Zero hour contracts are in vogue at the moment but I believe they will fall out of favour soon enough. They can be useful for both parties in certain circumstances. My fiancee struggled to get a job a while back due to the lack of relevant UK work experience and a long absence due to motherhood.

She started on a zero hour contract but was lucky enough to have a good manager who gave her as many hours as she wanted. Within a year she'd been moved into a more permanent role on a fixed hour contract.

Her company use zero hours as a way of weeding out low performers. If you are crap then you don't get many hours. If you are good, you get as many as you want. It makes sense for the company really.

claig · 15/08/2012 12:38

'The answer is not to cut our wages'

There's lots of talk about our workers being too expensive, and some people even talk about getting rid of the minimum wage. But they rarely talk about cutting the wages of the bankers, the charity bosses, the BBC executives, the fat cats in the privatised industries, it's just the wages of the low-paid that they say are "uncompetitive" and "unsustainable" in a world of an East/West divide.

Xenia · 15/08/2012 13:22

On the bsais that that author probably wants his views distributed and that it is based on his talk at the LSE here it is (and I thought it was rather good):-

$135 ? $12 = the pay gap the West can?t bridge
Jon Moynihan

We can?t compete with China on wages and are living beyond our means. We must retrench before we grow again

Two numbers ? $135 and $12 ? explain why Britain?s and Europe?s economies are stagnant or shrinking. Pundits and economists have lined up with suggestions about how to stimulate our economy: more quantitative easing; clever schemes such as ?funding for lending?; while others say enough of austerity, let?s stop the cuts. But all that assumes that growth is the natural order of things.

None of these proposals will solve our problems because they ignore the two numbers $135 and $12. The first is what the average worker in the West earns per day; the second what the average worker in urban China earns.

This inequality in pay is the main reason our economy is in peril. What entitles the rich world?s 500 million workers to salaries ten times greater than the 1.1 billion workers in urban bits of the developing world who toil and study so much harder, let alone nearly 100 times greater than the 1.3 billion adults who live in rural poverty?

In the global marketplace it is now impossible to preserve well-paid jobs for Westerners. Many of those jobs have gone or are going south or east. In the 1950s the most successful company by market capitalisation was General Motors. In 1955 it employed nearly half a million Americans and 80,000 foreigners. Today Apple, the world?s biggest company, employs 4,000 Americans and more than 700,000 overseas contractors. And in jobs that have not moved, wages are under severe downward pressure: US high- school dropouts now earn less in real terms than their dropout grandfathers.

It was not always like that. For 55 years after the Second World War annual growth in jobs in Western economies was about 2 per cent and real wages grew by about 3 per cent year after year. The idea that we would all earn more without having to work harder, and that there would be jobs for our children, became a democratic ?right?. But this right is now broken because, starting in 1990, developing nations ditched the failed socialist and Marxist policies that kept them poor. Since 2000 China?s economy has quintupled ? while jobs, wages and GDP growth over the cycle for Western economies was, with few exceptions, negative.

For the first time in centuries we have to compete on a level playing field. We cannot compete on wages. Do we have other advantages that will protect our living standards? Aren?t Europe?s workers better educated? More creative? No: 10,000 science PhDs graduated from Chinese universities last year. In 1995, global patents granted to China amounted to 0.5 per cent of the total; in 2010 it had reached 9 per cent and is rising exponentially. Our best universities are educating many future business leaders and scientists of developing countries. Our advantage in physical and intellectual capital is eroding fast. What the developing world does not create, it can steal; the global value of counterfeit and pirated goods is forecast to rise to $1.5 trillion by 2015.

Most importantly, we consume more and invest less. China?s investment levels (however misdirected some of those investments may be) have risen to almost half of GDP, while the West is at about 15 per cent and falling. The truth is that Western nations have been living beyond their means. Our build-up in total debt ? corporate, individual and government ? has now become an enormous overhang. The UK is more indebted than Greece, Spain or Italy and only Japan and Ireland?s total debt per head is greater than ours.

So how do we get out of this mess? First, we must live within our means. Since the 1950s, the UK economy has quadrupled but welfare spending is up tenfold. Entitlements will have to be cut. We all want a compassionate society that helps the disadvantaged but if it is done in unaffordable ways there will be no money for any benefits. Nearly 80 per cent of maternity pay and more than 40 per cent of child benefit goes to middle-class households in the UK; and why give a winter fuel allowance and free bus passes to middle-class pensioners?

Not only must we live within our means, the Government should prioritise spending that will lead to an economy that grows soundly. OECD studies indicate that redirecting funds to education and infrastructure has the greatest impact on long-term growth. The OECD also says that the way we tax should be rebalanced away from corporate and income taxes, which discourage wealth creation, towards consumption and property taxes.

Since the 1950s, health spending has grown at a much faster clip (nearly 5 per cent a year in real terms) than education (just over 3 per cent). Yet 22 per cent of healthcare spending is said to go on the final year of life. Which is more important: the last year of life or the first 20? Education is at the heart of our dilemma: 60 per cent of STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, Mathematics) graduate students in the UK are from abroad, and most will leave after graduating, particularly given our unwelcoming approach to immigration.

And yet it is in a highly educated workforce, particularly in science, that our future lies. According to the OECD, almost 20 per cent of children leave school without the reading skills essential to be a productive member of society. In Shanghai it is less than 4 per cent. If we were to transform education in the UK, and Michael Gove?s reforms could go some way to achieving this, there is a glimmer of hope. With an educated population we can develop the technologies and companies that will underpin a sound economy.

The Government could do more to support new technologies ? in cod parlance, bio-, nano-, info-, neuro-, cogno-, anti-carbo-. Infrastructure projects could boost the economy in the long term ? Simon Wolfson?s ?brain belt? (the Oxford-Cambridge motorway and science park); universal WiMAX or other ultra-high speed broadband; local bypasses; a Manchester -Sheffield motorway; the ?Boris Island? airport.

But over the next few years, a lower standard of living is almost inevitable. By my reckoning, a decline of about 15 per cent could be needed to balance Western economies. Many households have already implemented this but with government spending so large, private retrenchment alone is not enough. It would be better to choose to restructure our national spending priorities rather than have it forced upon us in more brutal fashion by the markets. Yet we cannot expect politicians to stand up and say this to us unless we are prepared to accept facts and admit it ourselves.

It?s a bleak view, but it contains the truth that all of us know: to recover, you have to retrench. To grow, you have to invest. To avoid the fate of Greece, you must shrink government expenditure. Capitalism works by creating surpluses and investing them productively not by borrowing money and squandering it on consumption.

Jon Moynihan is chairman of PA Consulting Group. This article is based on an talk given at the LSE www.techtv.mit.edu

OP posts:
claig · 15/08/2012 13:41

'The OECD also says that the way we tax should be rebalanced away from corporate and income taxes, which discourage wealth creation, towards consumption and property taxes.'

I bet it does. So the companies that earn millions in publicly funded contracts pay less tax and individuals make up the shortfall.

claig · 15/08/2012 13:47

'Yet 22 per cent of healthcare spending is said to go on the final year of life. Which is more important: the last year of life or the first 20?'

Yes, because the healthcare system is about keeping people alive. If you are 22 and you have cancer, that spending is vital. Also, what he doesn't take into account is the quality of the spend. Saving people's lives is vital, spending money on education about global warming policy can take a back seat. Running a sliderule over figures doesn't give the full picture. Some things are more worthwhile than others.

claig · 15/08/2012 13:52

'According to the OECD, almost 20 per cent of children leave school without the reading skills essential to be a productive member of society. In Shanghai it is less than 4 per cent.'

He keeps quoting the OECD. But it's horses for courses. Shanghai is one of the most developed cities in China and the 20% is for all of Britain. Why not compare Chelsea with Shanghai instead, for the percentage that Shanghai makes up of all of China.

claig · 15/08/2012 13:57

'If we were to transform education in the UK, and Michael Gove?s reforms could go some way to achieving this'

Now he's talking!

MooncupGoddess · 15/08/2012 14:12

Of course, the Chinese are now being undercut by countries where the base wage is $4-5 a day... such is globalisation.

I generally agree with his points, but get annoyed by articles which focus entirely on the need to cut welfare spending. So much money is wasted on ill-thought-out PFI projects, and via the complex tax code (not to mention potential taxes lost to evasion and borderline legal avoidance ploys). Slashing benefits and healthcare for poor and ill pensioners should not be a government priority (though ending free bus passes and winter fuel allowances for well-off ones certainly should be!).

claig · 15/08/2012 14:22

'It would be better to choose to restructure our national spending priorities rather than have it forced upon us in more brutal fashion by the markets. Yet we cannot expect politicians to stand up and say this to us unless we are prepared to accept facts and admit it ourselves.'

But politicians are always telling us that it is not "sustainable", that we must "cut back" and "work longer" and expect "smaller pensions". The question is, are they "facts", do we have to follow the path that the "markets" wish us to go down?

China boomed due to our financial market deregulation which created the debt which enabled Western companies to sell goods made in China to us. It was no accident, it was not inevitable, it was deliberate. It was globalisation and global investors grew richer on the back of cheap labour.

We are not powerless, it does not have to be that way.

'By my reckoning, a decline of about 15 per cent could be needed to balance Western economies.'
We can tip the scales, hoist the sails and change course. It's not a done deal.

'In 1995, global patents granted to China amounted to 0.5 per cent of the total; in 2010 it had reached 9 per cent and is rising exponentially.'

Yes, but it's not a zero sum game. What if the number of total patents is also rising exponentially.

'In the global marketplace it is now impossible to preserve well-paid jobs for Westerners.'
That is like saying we have "passed the tipping point" and we are doomed. I prefer Obama's optimism - "yes we can".

'why give a winter fuel allowance and free bus passes to middle-class pensioners?'
more of teh usual stuff about cutting benefits for teh middle class - the already "squeezed middle" who pay the most for services for everyone else. How many middle-class pensioners actually use a free bus pass?

'This inequality in pay is the main reason our economy is in peril. What entitles the rich world?s 500 million workers to salaries ten times greater than the 1.1 billion workers in urban bits of the developing world who toil and study so much harder, let alone nearly 100 times greater than the 1.3 billion adults who live in rural poverty?'

What entitles them to greater pay is that teh cost of living is probably 10 times higher here.

'$135 ? $12 = the pay gap the West can?t bridge'
He is comparing $135 to $12, but it's apples and oranges, the cost of living and the rates of taxation and the cost of fuel and the salaries of fat cats and bonuses to bankers are entirely different.

alemci · 15/08/2012 14:34

should GB go back to victorian times and we can then all feel smug and self righteous and reintroduce sweat shops etc.

we could all work in textiles and factories and produce lots of tat.

claig · 15/08/2012 14:35

' in cod parlance, bio-, nano-, info-, neuro-, cogno-, anti-carbo-'

I'm off for some common senso, 'anti carbo', no gloabl warmo wisdom in the Daily Mail, and it's all for free, no paywall.

claig · 15/08/2012 14:36

'should GB go back to victorian times and we can then all feel smug and self righteous'

according to some greens we should

claig · 15/08/2012 14:51

'What entitles the rich world?s 500 million workers to salaries ten times greater than the 1.1 billion workers in urban bits of the developing world who toil and study so much harder, let alone nearly 100 times greater than the 1.3 billion adults who live in rural poverty?''

Right, so because 1.3 billion adults live in rural poverty, we are not entitled to our salaries? Is it our sense of entitlement that needs changing?

Salaries are earned by work and that work delivers profit for companies. Why not focus on the disparity between the corporate profits and the fat cats with the rural poor rather than with us and the rural poor?

We are not 'uncompetitive' compared to the rural poor, since they are not competing in the same market, so why does that have anything to do with being entitled?

claig · 15/08/2012 14:58

Does the OECD say what the difference between the council tax is in Shanghai and London? Maybe that's why we get paid more, in order to pay our bills.

claig · 15/08/2012 15:00

To say nothing of the former £100 fine for leaving your bin lid open. I wonder what that costs in Shanghai?

Xenia · 15/08/2012 16:10

Welcome to the thread claig. I have been earning a crust.I thought it was quite a good article although I would not ilke more taxeson property . I want a much smaller state.

The queston of health spending - that amazing stat about how much is spent in the last year of life.

On working hours I just noticed in today's FT one writer talks about enjoying work (which I do and of course if you do it makes a mockery of work life balance - my doing work is no less pleasant thatn scrubbing a floor (better) or playing with the children or singing or whatever.. He says in 1830 the averageUS manufacturing worker workd 69 hours a week. |In 1900 this was 57 hours and today is 40.

I am not someone who would think "entitled" exists. We are here on this planet for a fairly short period and then mankind will be gone. There is no entitlement and the sooner our children understand that and concentrate on their responsibilities the better.

I think he ignores the fact that we've done very well in areas where we have been superior which tend to be trained for professional services, banking and the like (although at the moment we seem to want to kill the golden goose which feeds us all but the poor will be happy if they have fewer benefits but everyone above them has less because that is how the sin of envy works).

I was certainly heartened to see that at long long last t6he Governm,ent is proposing to make it easier for Chinese tourists to come here. At the moment we have become a fortress UK with a massive sign across itself saying do not set foot here if you are a sportsman even for 5 days or we will tax you to death, if you want a visa as the most senior corporate official in XYZ Land then you have to wait so long it's not worth the effort, if you want to bring your foreign student income here we do not want you and if you do come here not only do you pay 50% nicome tax but national insurance on top of that so most of what you earn is stolen from you by a massive state.

OP posts:
claig · 15/08/2012 16:22

'The queston of health spending - that amazing stat about how much is spent in the last year of life.'

But that is what we pay taxes for throughout our lives, so that we can be helped when we are ill. Kidney dialysis and cancer drugs are expensive, but they are vital and more important than some forms of cosmetic surgery. What is the alternative? To cut spending on help against life threatening disease and cut care for people who have paid throughout their entire lives? And why? Just because of $135 - $12, which is comparing apples and oranges anyway?