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Scrap Benefits and pay every adult, working, non working or retired, an unconditional basic income of £15,000 a year? Discuss

331 replies

CorruptBstard · 04/07/2012 15:35

Hi

Ok Mumsnet, what do you think of this?

Pay every adult in the uk £15,000 a year, with no conditions attached, so that every adult is free to use their time to do stuff, just for the love of it.

This basic income would cover basic needs for food and shelter, if people wanted to earn more money they could go and work for someone else or start a business of their own

This would abolish poverty in one fell swoop.

Wheres the money coming from to pay for it?

well apart from scrapping all "state benefits", we could also scrap income tax and fund it all by taxing money every time its spent.

ie Government gives me £5. I pass that £5 round a group of 10 friends. By the time the £5 comes back to me, it has been "spent" 10 times. Creating a turnover of £50. If the government taxes that spending at 20%, it raises £10 in tax. Making a profit of £5.

Thoughts?

If you recieved £15,000 a year unconditionally, what would you do just for the love of it?

OP posts:
MrJudgeyPants · 12/07/2012 21:19

I first met her when she was on maternity leave, since then she has gone back to working a three day week. In both scenarios she was better off after having had a child.

AmberLeaf · 12/07/2012 21:43

So if on maternity leave she wouldve been getting maternity allowance not income support? So not on benefit?

MrJudgeyPants · 13/07/2012 00:16

Since when did maternity allowance stop being a benefit?

Split hairs as much as you like but she has more money now than she did before. The model that niceguy2 links to from their post at 16:08 earlier today proves this scenario can happen. End of!

Back to the original point, what do people think about the idea of a universal credit whereby people are put in charge of their own welfare?

AmberLeaf · 13/07/2012 07:04

I'm not splitting hairs I'm picking out the holes in your made up story.

Statutory maternity pay paid by your employer is more than what you'd get on benefits.

Maternity allowance paid by the gov can nbe more than you'd get as a single parent on benefit.

I don't care what scenario niceguy linked to. That is not what you are talking about.

You said these two women were on benefits now you've changed it to fit your made up story.

MrJudgeyPants · 13/07/2012 10:22

This is not a made up story. Nor am I changing it as I go along. Show me where I said that they were both 100% benefit dependant. Why is it so bloody difficult for you to understand that, due to claiming housing benefit, she no longer needs to pay that out of her earned income? Add to this that she is also now entitled to benefits which she wasn't claiming earlier - I'm no expert on the welfare system but I believe her when she tells me she has more money now than she did when working full time and I can see no reason for her to mislead me.

Similarly, and as convenient as it is for you to ignore, niceguy2 provided you with some direct evidence (with links) that it is possible to have a child, reduce your hours and end up with more money (as well as outlining a similar situation to that which I've been describing) yet you chose to refute all this. Why?

AmberLeaf · 13/07/2012 15:49

Because you implied initially that these women were 'on benefits' now most people will take that as meaning living off benefits not working and having your income topped up.

Working part time and claiming tax credits is not the same as simply being 'on benefits'

I know how the system works so the links are not necessary.

AmberLeaf · 13/07/2012 15:52

Also claiming housing benefit isn't the reserve of single parents.

CouthyMow · 13/07/2012 17:58

NiceGuy - I AM talking about a split in the Tax Credits - NOT necessarily 50-50, but a percentage to each, based on 1) Each Parents Income, and 2) On the actual split of shared care.

BTW, My DC's have different fathers. DD's father works seasonally, so for 6 months of the year, I receive £80 pcm in maintenance, the rest of the year nothing.

DS1's father is a lazy idle tosspot who hasn't worked in the 9 years we have been divorced, and doesn't pay a penny in maintenance as he has too many DC with his new partner to even pay £5 a week out of his JSA, yet I have to cover all clothing costs, childcare costs, school trips, shoes, coats, food when he is with me etc. Everything. His father buys nothing except the food he eats when he is there.

DS2 & DS3's dad DOES pay reasonable maintenance, BUT he has no restrictions on his working hours,doesn't have to worry about picking the DC's up from childcare (which would be two different providers as one is school age and one is a toddler, and is complicated by the fact that I cannot legally drive). BUT when I go back to work, I will have to pay for all the childcare AND only take a job that fits in 1) Around the times the childcare is open AND 2) Allows enough time for me to get from work to the Nursery by public transport AND allows enough time for me to THEN get to the after-school club by public transport IN RUSH HOUR, before the after-school club shuts.

Which also limits the distance from the childcare providers that I can work, as I have to take travel times into account.

All of which makes it harder to find a job in the first place, and then I am liable for ALL the childcare costs even though he only has ONE of the DC overnight ONCE a fortnight THROUGH CHOICE.

He doesn't even have both of them for 26 nights a year, only one of them, and he has the other for just 6 nights a year.

Why SHOULD I have all these restrictions on what job I can take, be liable for the entire costs of childcare AND STLL be lambasted for not being able to find a job where the logistics are viable?!

If he paid 50% of the childcare costs, and/or did 50% of the pick-ups, (which would actually be EASIER for him as his workplace would almost definately be closer to the childcare than mine would be...), thus alleviating some of the logistical issues for me, I would be out at work tomorrow!

I see no problem with splitting the TC's and Child Benefit as a percentage that is directly proportionate to each block of 24 hours that an NRP is willing to have their DC and take on the responsibility of logistical issues such as childcare pick ups.

And what do you mean about the RP getting to choose the childcare? I would never assume that I had an automatic right to choose schools or childcare providers alone, I always have involved my DC's NRP in those decisions. except DD's father but he was off radar until she was 12yo, had no clue how to contact him as he had no contact through choice until then, so I had to do all that...

I have just pencilled in a date to sit down with my Numpty of an Ex-H to fill in DS1's Secondary school application form in October. I may dislike him, but he is still DS1's father, and has a right to be involved in that process, even if he refused to go to the Grammar school open evening this week, as it was 'too late in the evening and XXX (his new partner) can't deal with all the DC on her own...

DS2 & DS3's father is in discussion with me at the moment about choosing which Nursery I will pay for when I go back to work...which seems a bit unfair to me, that he gets a 50% say in where DS3 goes, yet he doesn't then assume a 50% responsibility for the fees...

MarigoldsInTheWindow · 16/07/2012 12:59

hmm dousnt sound like a good idea.
if everyone gets 15k richer everything else will go up to wont it?

corrupt · 17/07/2012 22:05

hi all. sorry been away. but good news ive found the answer to the rampant inflation question. bad news, its long.

here it is

How to make BI inflation-proof
while also raising wages
­

by Jeffery J. Smith
President, Forum on Geonomics

Presented at the 2008 US BIG track
within the Eastern Economic Association annual conference
in Boston at the Park Plaza Hotel, March 7-9

Abstract

When an advocate promotes a Basic Income Grant (BIG or BI) to thoughtful people, they inevitably point out that increasing people's purchasing power could be inflationary. And indeed, they could be right, at least for one sector ? housing. In the past, when government gave money to the poor or students or pensioners, then their landlords raised what they charged for tenements, dormitories, and trailer parks.

Yet there is a way to put landlords in competition for tenants. It's a way to also raise funds for paying a BI or a CD (Citizens Dividend). That is, where government has taxed land, it has discouraged land speculators and encouraged landowners to keep their improvements affordable. The raised revenue could fund an income supplement, somewhat like what. Aspen CO does.

Additionally, where government recovers rent, they keep down price. Since the value of the location is an immense part of the price of real estate, when land costs little, land plus buildings cost much less, so that buyers borrow much less. With less debt in society, there is less debt-backed new notes. With the supply of money in better balance with the output of new goods and services, the means to inflate prices is lacking. Government could swell the BI or CD to a quite comfortable size and still not worry about inflation as long as it recovers rent.

Historically, where government taxed land, there wages were higher, since affordable land provided more opportunity to work for oneself, besides more employment opportunity. Plus, if a worker's income were augmented by a share of rent, that too would enable workers to negotiate better wages. And if the complete geonomic tax shift were ushered in ? tax pollution, not income; tax extraction, not sales; tax location, not buildings ? there the average resident would pay land dues but nothing else. Hence the average citizen would enjoy lower taxes, lower prices, higher wages, plus a Citizens Dividend. On balance, the average citizen ? people who must support the extra income proposal in order for it to pass ? would come out way ahead.

Finally, if there are no excess new notes to inflate prices, and as long as technology keeps advancing, then progress would show up as a lower cost of living. Rather than inflate prices, a BI or CD would lower them, as long as its funding source were society?s surplus, all the money people spend on the land, resources, and government-granted privileges that they use. Better than packaging an income supplement as a necessary salve for inflation is to show how it can be part of a holistic policy to transform the economy into working right for everyone.

Introduction

Thoughtful people, upon hearing the proposal of a Basic Income or Citizens? Dividend (the BI is a set amount, enough to cover basic needs, the CD is a share of public revenue surplus, which could be much higher than a BI), often raise the same questions.

  • First, how could people ever deserve something for nothing? By that implied logic, we should of course pay for another manna from heaven, the air we breathe ? which, given current environmental trends, may not be too far in the future; in Calcutta, traffic cops take breathing breaks to inhale from bottled oxygen..

  • Second, thoughtful people want to know, where?s the money going to come from? Most people, including most BIGists, are not aware of society?s surplus, of the flow of income generated not by one?s labor or capital but by the advantages inherent in a region?s land.

  • And third, the topic of this paper, wouldn?t spending money for nothing be inflationary? The simple answer is ?no?, since no new money is created and issued over and beyond the amount of goods and services produced. Further, the income supplement does not increase the amount of spending in society but merely redirects it from those who now get too much income to those who now get too little.

Have some income supplements inflated prices?

Eventho? an extra income for everyone would not necessarily inflate prices economy-wide, it could inflate the price of a certain sector, depending on the source of the funds for the universal payment. That is, the basic necessity that often requires poor people to pony up first ? even before spending on food ? is housing. When government gives people money, landlords generally raise what they charge to absorb as much of that gift as they can.

A century ago in England when Winston Churchill campaigned for economic justice, he would tell the story of a London bridge that claimed so much of the meager income of the poor residents of London who lived on one side of the Thames and worked on the other. Feeling sorry for them, reformers organized to legislate a lower toll for the bridge. Within weeks, rents in the impoverished jurisdiction went up by the same amount.

The way things were is the way things still are. Today, when government grants money to poor people or students or pensioners, their landlords raise what they charge for tenements or dormitories or trailer parks. The extra money from the government increased demand for housing by its recipients but not supply of locations by owners; it enhanced competition among people seeking housing but not among people producing housing, raising the cost of housing.

What BI source is anti-inflationary per sector?

As long as landlords can keep raising what they charge, then income supplements like Basic Income are spinning their wheels, are mere exercises in futility. However, there is a way to (a) put landlords in competition for tenants. And it?s a way that (b) precludes the possibility of an extra income causing inflation. Plus, it?s a way that also (c) raises funds for paying a BI or a CD (Citizens Dividend). Furthermore, this way (d) conveys a justification of why receiving money for nothing is fair.

This four-way solution is for society to recover the rent for land and natural resources and for government-granted privileges, such as utility franchises, which behave like land in the economic arena. Society, through its agent, government, could levy a tax on the value of locations or charge owners land dues or a land use fee but by some mechanism redirect all the money we spend on the nature we use from owners and lenders to the public treasury (thence to everyone in general). Plus, government could charge full-market value for the little pieces of paper it grants, including corporate charters, bank charters, utility franchises, broadcast licenses, medical licenses, etc.

Where government has done so, which is not often, it has lowered land price. When Pittsburgh taxed urban land more than buildings, it had the most affordable housing (on home sites, of course) of any major city in America. When Denmark, California, Australia, New Zealand, and Taiwan taxed rural land, they drove down its price and broke up large estates into family farms.

Whatever the effect on price (yet to be studied elsewhere), a few governments even paid dividends.

  • Aspen CO pays housing assistance from site rent, recovered via a tax on sales of property (whose value in that pricey resort is mostly land, that is, location). Others use other rents.
  • Alaska pays dividends from (invested) oil rent. Other jurisdictions share rent to help with a basic and universal cost:
  • Alberta Canada has used oil rent to pay energy bill rebates.
  • British Columbia rebates a fixed dividend from a carbon tax (atmospheric rent).

Public recovery of rents works to dampen prices by reversing the incentives for the holders of privilege. Consider the classic example of owning land. When owners must pay over (some or all) rent rather than keep it, landowners typically cannot afford to let their properties become empty, so they do not raise what they charge tenants, many of whom would move on to more affordable buildings, but instead accept a smaller profit.

Moreover, owners who had been underutilizing their locations tend to no longer speculate but put and keep their sites at highest and best use, in order to generate revenue for paying the land dues or land tax; landowners are spurred to erect new buildings. The increased supply of structures for both residence and business (a) puts landlords into competition among themselves for buyers and tenants. Just the opposite of inflating prices in the housing sector, this rebalance actually lowers how much owners can charge tenants and buyers.

The drop in the price for buildings is paralleled by a fall in the cost of land, again helping the poor the most since they do not typically deal in land except occasionally to buy a sub-prime parcel with a small old house on top. Public recovery of rent works to lower land price because the less rent that the public leaves on the table, the less price an owner can charge. Buyers cannot afford to pay both a high land price and a high land tax; as long as government keeps its land dues high, owners must bring their land prices down. Put abstractly, since land price is capitalized land rent, when government socializes rent into public revenue, then owners cannot capitalize rent into price; the more rent that society recovers, the less they leave for seller to convert into price.

What?s the source of inflation in general?

Members of society pay a huge amount of their income for real estate. Indeed FIRE ? Finance, Insurance, & Real Estate ? is by far the single biggest sector of the economy, constituting well over 40% of the GDP (at the US Government?s official website of the BEA). Within FIRE, it is for locations, not for buildings, that people spend the most money.

Compare two homes of identical size on identical-sized lots, the same distance from downtown, a major traffic artery, a school, a park, but one in Boston and the other in Cleveland. The former would typically cost three times as much as the latter ($400k vs. $130k, National Assoc. of Realtors). The cost of construction and materials are roughly the same. It?s the value of the location that costs so much more in places like Boston, New York, San Francisco, and San Diego (eventho? official assessments do not reflect this fact).

To buy land ? actually, a location ? plus whatever?s on it, most people don?t pay cash for more than a ten percent down payment and borrow the rest. In today?s developed world, banks meet the demand for credit in part by creating new money that never existed before and issue that into circulation via loans. Since banks lend so much for the purchase of real estate, when land costs more, banks lend more. Since land is not produced, much of the new money for mortgages does not represent any newly produced goods and services. When land sellers and mortgage lenders spend their excess new notes on the same old amount of goods and services, they bid up their price, which is another way to say ?inflation?.

Presently in the US, inflation is rising, following years of rising debt, both public (for war) and private (for land, which war is also for). For years, many of those excess dollars were drained out of the domestic economy by foreigners buying dollars and stockpiling them. But lately, foreigners increasingly buy euros, pounds (and other rising currencies), and gold with their dollars. So those dollars must come home not to roost but to flood the domestic economy. As those never-backed dollars circulate throughout the economy, consumers unavoidably use them to bid up the prices of basic essentials, such as energy, food, and medical care. As long as Americans keep deficit spending and foreigners keep dollar dumping, we can expect inflation to rise even faster.

It may seem that a necessity like oil causes inflation but its rising price is inflation. The cause is excess currency, which a necessity like land has the power to absorb. If there were no excess of new money, then the price of oil or land could rise, but it?d have to be offset by people spending less on something else, whose price would fall. The price of new clothes has fallen (in constant dollars), largely due to automation and globalization, but low as it is, it still drives some shoppers to secondhand stores whose popularity has mushroomed (?Secondhand Stores Moving Into the Retail Mainstream? by Leslie Kaufman, The New York Times, April 26, 2000). Their forgoing the purchase of new clothes is another factor for why the price of new clothes has fallen.

What BI source is anti-inflationary in general?

Even if government does not reduce its own borrowing and deficit spending, it can still reduce total debt in the economy ? the private borrowing of homebuyers and deficit spending of homeowners. Government can tax land, thereby reducing land price; thus buyers need borrow less and owners can?t borrow more (to take ?equity?, the land value, out of their property). Less borrowing of course means less lending, fewer new notes unmatched by new production, and thus less inflation.

Besides lowering the price of housing, less expensive land also lowers the total price or lease of shops, offices, and factories. Thus, expanding businesses looking to purchase or lease commercial sites need borrow less, too. While commercial banking does not generate as much debt as does lending to homebuyers or government, it is still a sizeable amount and shrinking it would slow inflation.

Where people need spend less on land, they have more wherewithal to spend on the things that humans do produce, enabling producers to prosper. Where people prosper, they both need government services less and can afford to pay more. Hence their government could increase its income and decrease its outgo, and be in a position where it need not borrow so much. Were its politicians to take that enlightened path, it would reduce the amount of un-backed, excess notes.

Shrinking the borrowing of government, business, and residents, the amount of debt could then equal the amount of actual, physical economic expansion. New money would be in balance with new output. Inflation would drop to zero; it?d disappear.

An economy of zero inflation depends upon full recovery of rents; flush with all those rents, then government could pay a cash income supplement to the poor or everyone, an amount large or small, and (b) still not trigger inflation. Landlords and land sellers would still have to compete for business. None could inflate the price of land, nor the amount of borrowing; keeping down debt precludes economy-wide inflation.

What BI source raises wages and lowers taxes?

Public recovery of rent ? whether for funding an income supplement or social services or both ? not only cuts consumer costs (the inflated price of goods and services) but also raises workers? wages. Historically, where government taxed land or otherwise recovered rent, it discouraged speculation so that owners did not hoard land or keep it idle awaiting a future lift in rent or price. That left lots of land available to others at prices they could afford. Thereby newcomers or young adults could turn to farming if one did not like the wages offered for working in factories. Not everyone had to refuse city work but where a critical mass did ? e.g., in the American colonies vs. in Europe, then later on the Eastern Seaboard vs. the continental interior ? wages were higher.

Even today, affordable land lets workers negotiate healthier wages. People refusing the offers of bosses need not turn to farming. They could use an available location to launch whatever enterprise. As long as they turn a profit and stay in business, they need not compete for jobs and instead keep employers competing for employees, which keeps wages high. In the 1920s when New York taxed land, construction workers enjoyed higher wages. In the late 1950s when Denmark taxed land, workers got the biggest jump in wages in Danish history. Plus, if entrepreneurs and workers were to receive a BI or CD, that too would act as free land and further empower people to negotiate higher wages.

Are wage increases inflationary (not of a basic necessity but of goods and services in general)? Whether biased or backward, the mainstream media say higher wages do cause inflation. Whether biased or backward, the mainstream media do not blame easier credit bestowed upon investors for inflating the prices of stocks and real estate. Yet, ironically, neither more income for labor or for capital is the culprit; it?s the over-issuance of new notes via loans, mainly for real estate, but also for corporate welfare. If government were to recover the rents for privilege, then capital, even with fatter earned profits, couldn?t bid up the price of stocks. If government were to recover the rents for land, then labor, even with higher new wages, couldn?t bid up the price of housing. Absent excessive new notes, higher wages or profits cannot inflate prices in general.

As a society, people spend immense sums for privilege, for land titles, resource leases, EM spectrum licenses, emission permits, congestion charges, corporate charters and other liability limits, patents and copyrights, utility franchises, medical licenses and other professional gateways, banking charters, etc. The annual market values of those pieces of paper constitute a prodigious portion of any economy, at least a third of GDP, perhaps a half or even more. Any government that recovers this immense flow of rent would be wallowing in wealth.

Such a geonomic government would (c) have so much revenue it could not only fund whatever social services a democratic majority desires, and use the surplus to share among the members of society, government could also abolish other taxes. Doing so would not cost government any revenue. Where taxes on income, sales, and buildings are low or non-existent, people want to live and work. So there they bid up the value of land. By recovering that rent, government raises as much revenue as before, if not more. Not having to pay counterproductive taxes, people do more business, which pumps up site values, which the geonomic government would recover.

Guns vs. butter or Spending vs. dividends?

Even without cutting public budgets, governments could operate without borrowing, since recoverable rent is so immense, and still pay a modicum of BI or CD. But if government were to curb its discretionary spending, then the surplus of public revenue would be stupendous, making possible a staggering income supplement. Choosing between spending by legislatures vs. disbursing to citizens is something the populace could participate in by putting the budget on the ballot, as do many towns in southern Brazil.

Citizens could do without social programs if they received an income supplement to make up the difference. Rather than have citizens pay taxes to politicians to pay budgets to bureaucrats to pay salaries to providers to serve citizens, governments would pay dividends to citizens directly, drastically reducing the overhead of bureaucracy. What they receive now as public schooling and socialized medicine, citizens would receive as a straight cash payment, then recipients would select their own providers.

While government would save, citizens would not lose; indeed, they would likely gain. Recoverable rent is immense and a share of rent ? minus the cost of bureaucratic overhead ? would tend to be greater than the value of a subsidized service. Plus the citizen receiving it could spend the money anyway they want, finding suppliers of education and health care that more precisely meet their individual needs, and who could save them money.

If citizens were to get a share of recovered rent, they could do with less government, especially the state?s original raison d?etre, the military, which consumes so much of so many public budgets. The military recruits civilians with offers of money, money for college or housing, or free medical attention. If people got their monetary needs met without enlisting, then the military would become smaller, less threatening, and by necessity the government would become less belligerent. Note how much smaller the militaries are and less adventurous the governments are of Western Europe, which are social democracies spending most of their sizeable budgets on welfare. By paying an income supplement, government could spend less on guns and butter both, slowing inflation.

Along with national governments, constituent governments also waste public revenue. Governments misspend huge sums ? as a nation to wage war qua war, as a state to wage war on drugs including building more prisons than schools or hospitals, and as a locality to pick up the tab for sprawl by expanding infrastructure into the suburbs. If governments quit the waste, they could shrink their bureaucracies and balance their budgets. Governments would no longer have a rationale for borrowing to fund their operations. They could still sell bonds to fund desired expansion ? new infrastructure such as bike paths and water recycling plants. But those real physical goods would pay for themselves and might merit an increase in the money supply and not trigger inflation.

By reducing the debt of government, business, and households, so that the remaining debt is for actually adding to the output of real goods and services, then debt would not be inflationary. Instead, inflation would halt. Even better, it would likely reverse.

Better yet, is a CD anti-inflationary?

When calculated in constant dollars, the prices of goods that are supplied without having to pass through bottlenecks are actually falling. In arenas where there is technological progress and some competition ? manufacture of clothes, cars, and computers ? one finds prices dropping (in constant dollars). In arenas where technology is hoarded by patent protection and suppliers have formed cartels to lobby for legal exclusion of competitors ? doctoring, teaching, lawyering, just like the guilds of old ? one finds prices skyrocketing through the stratosphere.

Were government to permit capable people to compete with credentialed people, and to charge full market value for credentials like a medical license, then doctors and the rest could not charge nearly so much. Were government to charge full market value for patents and copyrights, then corporations who get a leg up and try to corral all the inventive talent and new ideas could not afford to be dogs-in-the-manger. New ideas and devices would spread to even less endowed consumers, driving down the cost of living faster.

Imagine living in a geonomy where society?s agent, government, recovers then disburses all rents for land, nature, and privilege. The average person would not suffer the consequences of unwanted unemployment, so wages would rise across the board. The average person would own only a homesite of average value, but no commercial or industrial or mineral or agricultural or spectral or environmental sites, so they?d pay land dues of an amount far less than the taxes they now pay. The average person would get the same hefty rent share as other citizens. And meanwhile, thanks to accelerating techno-progress and decelerating debt, the cost of living would nigh daily be dropping. Soon, one?s rent share would be bigger than one?s wages! Living off the automatic and irrepressible bounty of nature and society, not off arduous labor or clever capital, imagine how that would change the worldview and values of the average person.

Sharing is not inflating but transforming

Americans live by the business model. We all know the slogans, ?buy low, sell high?, and ?run government like a business?. Rather than condemn such mottos, the left should employ them. Have government charge full value for its permits ? everything from deeds to charters. Americans could not fault government but would salute it for charging, as would any rational businessman, as much as the market would bear; ?what?s good for the goose is good for the gander.?

Since we citizens are the stakeholders, and since the market value of public privilege belongs to all of us, then most of us (d) could clearly see that we?re entitled to an equitable share of surplus revenue. Places where residents do receive a dividend, such as in Alaska, people do more than admire rent recovery ? they celebrate it. If we citizens were made beneficiaries of such sound business practice, the thoughtful citizen would easily see that the public recovery of rent is a necessary ? and fair ? prelude to the disbursement of shares into their own pockets.

Realizing a venerable ideal, this geonomic practice would align self-interest with social interest. The self is served by not paying taxes on efforts while getting a dividend. Society is served by recovering rents while losing subsidies for special interests.

The secondary effects would be transformational. Recovering all rents would drive efficient use of resources and claw back the economic and political clout of the elite. Fattening the dividend would spread prosperity and shrink the oppressive power of the state.

This big picture, long term vision fulfills a promise greater than a way to pay everyone an extra income without generating inflation. Yet the grander world follows from the same reform ? sharing rents in lieu of taxing efforts ? as does the single benefit of avoiding inflation. While the thoughtful person would appreciate knowing that a Basic Income or Citizens Dividend would not merely raise prices by a like amount, thoughtful people might be inspired to meld into a movement upon realizing that we need not serve the economy, we can straight away make the economy serve us.

niceguy2 · 18/07/2012 08:14

@Couthy. Your own personal example illustrates perfectly my point that families are complex beasts nowadays and one size doesn't fit all. There simply isn't a 'fair' solution because 'fair' is in the eye of the beholder.

Plus don't forget how complicated/expensive it would be to administer such a divvying up system and how many parents would then suddenly start to fight for more days now that tax credits are up for grabs (or to lose). It simply promotes animosity and that certainly isn't in the interests of the kids.

My overall point is that it's not an ideal world. Yes being an RP sometimes sucks as you are expected to put the kids first. And yes being an NRP means you have less responsibility. But the other side of the coin means you get to spend more quality time with the kids.

MrJudgeyPants · 18/07/2012 09:46

Hi corrupt. I've read the long post of yours but I'm still not buying it! It only looks at the effect of inflation on rents but I think he's putting the cart before the horse about inflation. Yes, I agree that some landlords will be bastards and raise the rent but evidence shows that, actually, it is the consumer that pushes up prices. Given a pocket full of unearned cash, there is less incentive to screw down the very best deal for yourself. There is a tendency to go for the premium version where the basic option has sufficed in the past. These all conspire to push prices up.

Secondly, he suggests the following "tax pollution, not income; tax extraction, not sales; tax location, not buildings ? there the average resident would pay land dues but nothing else." This is all well and good and arguably we would end up with a greener, cleaner country to live in and that, in itself, is no bad thing. However, irrespective of where the tax is levied it remains unavoidable that, without printing new money, these taxes will have to raise, from the taxpayer, an average of £15k per person. This is still a hell of an increase in overall taxation.

I suspect that this proposal is centred on a smaller Basic Income than the one you suggest. One which I reiterate my support for!

Mrbojangles1 · 05/08/2012 18:45

I know people who would take that 15k spend it on drugs and drink and their children would still have no shoes and food

Being poor is not about not having any money often its about poverty of the mind their are many people who were dirt poor came in to money and with in a few years were worse off than when they started

My sister was left 60k and a flat three years later she has £500 left and sighned the flat over to some married guy she was seeing she is now back on benfits most people would of have been set for life

and just as you would have people who would piss it up the wall you would have people who make millions from it

And just side note were would this 15k come from if no one was working

RoloTamasi · 07/09/2012 15:13

The only way to make this work is have the figure be indexed against government tax take, not inflation or any other measure. That way the figure can be self-correcting - if fewer people work to earn extra, tax take drops, and the payout drops until more people have enough incentive to work. If more people work to earn more, tax take goes up, and the citizen's income rises until more people decide to stop working.

Those living on the citizen's income only might then have to face the very real possibility that the country simply isn't rich enough for the income to be at a high enough level to provide a comfortable lifestyle. Cue much complaining about the regressive nature of the income system from those now living in poverty who are unable to work...

CorruptBstard · 03/10/2012 14:32

You lot are going to love this ;-)

"Forget benefits......I'll give everybody £15,000 a year" - Today's Evening Post

www.thisisbristol.co.uk/Speakers-Corner-Forget-benefits-ll-pound-15-000/story-17024577-detail/story.html

OP posts:
CorruptBstard · 03/10/2012 14:34

And its not a new idea either

A Town Without Poverty?
Canada's only experiment in guaranteed income finally gets reckoning

www.dominionpaper.ca/articles/4100

OP posts:
MrJudgeyPants · 03/10/2012 17:43

You still haven't got past the simple fact that if you give everyone £15k each you will need to collect an average of £15k through your tax system. That is an eye watering amount to be raised via a purchase tax - especially as there is nothing to stop Bristolians from shopping outside Bristol and therefore avoiding your sales tax.

Totally unworkable.

MrJudgeyPants · 03/10/2012 17:45

Isn't the Canadian experiment just Income Support by another name???

notenoughsocks · 04/10/2012 16:04

I think a lot of people, on both sides of the Atlantic, in the 1960s and 1970s spent a lot of time trying to find ways to make similar ideas work (minimum income guarantee; negative income tax etc.). Each attempt floundered and the idea eventually died (not meaning to knock your ideas btw).
Speaking for myslef is that these schemes look, initally, so politcally progressive and redistributive and left leaning etc. etc. Actually, they can also be seen as deeply regressive and potentially quite damaging.

aufaniae · 06/10/2012 08:37

The idea of being able to choose how to spend your time reminded me of this:

?We should do away with the absolutely specious notion that everybody has to earn a living. It is a fact today that one in ten thousand of us can make a technological breakthrough capable of supporting all the rest. The youth of today are absolutely right in recognizing this nonsense of earning a living. We keep inventing jobs because of this false idea that everybody has to be employed at some kind of drudgery because, according to Malthusian Darwinian theory he must justify his right to exist. So we have inspectors of inspectors and people making instruments for inspectors to inspect inspectors. The true business of people should be to go back to school and think about whatever it was they were thinking about before somebody came along and told them they had to earn a living.?

Buckminster Fuller

TeaAndHugs · 07/10/2012 02:12

So, I could quit work and get a 50% pay rise? Nice! But... why would anyone ever work under this system? Wouldn't our GDP fall through the floor? Who would do the undesirable jobs (rubbish collecting, cleaning toilets, etc) that are necessary for society to function?

madmouse · 07/10/2012 14:32

Who would collect the rubbish? Clean the streets? Get shot at by criminals? Pick up the drunks who think they need an ambulance on Saturday night? Cut meat of animal carcasses? Wash the bottoms of people who can't do it for themselves?

There are a lot of jobs people do because they get paid and not for the love of it.

Xenia · 08/10/2012 09:10

Most people would work and £15k is much less than many get so it would make hard workers feel happier and ensure the idle poor have to move into much smaller accommodation so it could work rather well. If I chose not to work we would ste £20k in housing benefit plus other beneftis.

As George Osborne said on the radio today it is not fair that so many hard working young people live with parents because they cannot buy a place and their friends who choose never to work get housed when they have a child. One of mine looked at a flat to buy (£10k stamp duty 1 bed first time buyer) and the much larger flat below had a lady with 5 children in it (not working and on benefits of course paid for by tax payers who work)

ttosca · 08/10/2012 15:09

Oh yes, I'm sure George Osborne's main concern was with 'fairness', rather than cutting welfare and reducing the size of the state.

Xenia · 08/10/2012 17:50

We have hardly begune to make things fair for the squeeze middle and higher earners ecven with proposed welfare cutting and I have seen no real plans to make a smaller state sadly. both Tories and Labour sit in the middle with very similar policies. No one really represents the real right or left any more.

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