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Scrap Benefits and pay every adult, working, non working or retired, an unconditional basic income of £15,000 a year? Discuss

331 replies

CorruptBstard · 04/07/2012 15:35

Hi

Ok Mumsnet, what do you think of this?

Pay every adult in the uk £15,000 a year, with no conditions attached, so that every adult is free to use their time to do stuff, just for the love of it.

This basic income would cover basic needs for food and shelter, if people wanted to earn more money they could go and work for someone else or start a business of their own

This would abolish poverty in one fell swoop.

Wheres the money coming from to pay for it?

well apart from scrapping all "state benefits", we could also scrap income tax and fund it all by taxing money every time its spent.

ie Government gives me £5. I pass that £5 round a group of 10 friends. By the time the £5 comes back to me, it has been "spent" 10 times. Creating a turnover of £50. If the government taxes that spending at 20%, it raises £10 in tax. Making a profit of £5.

Thoughts?

If you recieved £15,000 a year unconditionally, what would you do just for the love of it?

OP posts:
claig · 07/07/2012 23:59

'Vladimir Putin said it is "quite possible" that Russia will one day join the eurozone and create a currency that would eclipse the US dollar as the global reserve standard.'

www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/currency/8163347/Putin-Russia-will-join-the-euro-one-day.html

niceguy2 · 08/07/2012 22:16

If the heads of states now embark on the path toward more integration and sacrifice some national sovereignty for common financial policies, the euro will be the next global reserve currency.

I think that's a VERY big IF

Politician's by their very nature do not like giving up power. Especially when they've spent so many decades building their political careers to get it.

MrJudgeyPants · 09/07/2012 10:11

CorruptBstard Sat 07-Jul-12 21:12:29

Sorry Corrupt, real life got in the way of an interesting discussion so I'll respond to your posts (and anyone else?s) as I get there. This one's first, so here goes.

"1. Basic income is index linked to inflation."

You can link anything you like to inflation but if you follow strategies which give you hyperinflation, anything that you've linked to inflation will also hyper inflate. You can't put the cart before the horse - if you increase the basic income you will increase inflation. Inflation is most easily caused by increasing the supply of money from nowhere - i.e. printing more money. As that is exactly what you want to do, there is no way to avoid inflation.

Your second point is quite long so I won't copy and paste it again, however, your argument boils down to "If we give everyone lots of money we won't need whole industries such as pension providers, therefore, won't the inflationary effect be zero?"

I fear that it isn't as simple as that. Firstly, we are talking about millions of people getting some money compared to a few thousand losing some. On this balance alone, you can see that there would still be a huge net injection of cash into the economy. Secondly, those pension funds in turn go on, eventually, to provide capital funds for, amongst other things, start-up businesses or loans to allow existing businesses to expand - which in turn, we hope, deliver a profit for those pension schemes.

MrJudgeyPants · 09/07/2012 11:39

CorruptBstard Sat 07-Jul-12 21:14:44

Apologies for the length of this one but, here we go!

"I reckon you probably like the idea yourself, but disagree that it can be funded and therefore its flawed as a pipe dream."

I've said up thread that I think your idea is flawed but only because of the amounts of money you are throwing around. If you can't be arsed (and why would you!) to trawl through the previous 200-odd posts my position was that I was in favour of splitting the current welfare pot equally amongst the adult & pensioner population (more for disabled, infirm and, for the time being, pensioners) irrespective of income. This money could either be invested in a pension scheme for those that don't need it, spent immediately by the reckless, borrowed against in exchange of a higher (privately provided) unemployment 'allowance', used to pay for university fees / university living costs or just stuck in a high interest account for a rainy day. The fact that this is a universal payment means that it is an income for all, underwritten by the government, meaning that everyone's credit worthiness would improve. Because it is universal, there would be no feelings of animosity between the waged and the unwaged. There is no loss of benefit or even interaction with the state at all, when you re-enter work. Finally, because the overall money supply changes very little - this is currently funded expenditure and doesn't require the printing presses to be run up - inflation would not be a problem.

"Parity"

You are correct that if everyone took their money out of the Bank there would be a crash and that confidence underpins the system. However, consider this. If you paid £15,000 BristolQuids to everyone in Bristol, how many of them would buy, for example, a car with that money? Now, to my knowledge there are no motor manufacturers in Bristol, all Fords, Vauxhalls etc., are for the purpose of this discussion 'imports'. So the local garage (even if it accepts your currency) will still need to change that money into Pounds Sterling. At this point, the council will have to accept that exchange. In effect Bristol Council would end up buying a car for their constituents.

"Bristol pounds are acceptable to enterprises outside bristol"

The problem with this assumption is that the vendor is under no obligation to accept Bristol Pounds. Most businesses outside Bristol would rather be paid in Sterling just to keep the numbers simple if nothing else. It's also difficult to envisage how the internal marketing system of a business such as Tesco's - a business with multiple suppliers and retail outlets, often crisscrossing the Bristol / Britain 'border' would welcome having some stores paying in one currency, the rest paying in another, whilst some suppliers want one currency, others want another - likewise some staff will need to be paid in one currency etc. etc. etc. The other thing is that whilst BristolQuids are especially susceptible to higher inflation than the rest of the Sterling currency, it's difficult to envisage anyone holding on to BristolQuids for any length of time. Look at it this way. If you had a relie who kicked the bucket and left you a house in Bristol, if you sold it and had a couple of hundred grand sitting in a bank account, would you risk keeping your money in a currency that could devalue against your freely exchangeable neighbours currency at any time, or would you choose to buy Sterling in the first place?

"the £100 shopping example"

In simple terms, you want to pay everyone £15k. You need to do this with running the printing press. Obviously, you are going to have to raise this money in taxes somehow. Your preferred and chosen method of tax is a sales tax.

Now, there is a theory in economics (I can't remember its name but, then again, I'm not an economist!) which states that only individuals pay tax. Think about it. If you levy a tax on a business, either the customers pays more for the product, the shareholder receives less as a dividend or a combination of the two. If we take your example and work it backwards and we start with something easily imagined like an apple, what happens? Well, the apple goes from the farmer to the wholesaler for the cost of growing an apple, some profit for the farmer and a contribution towards a sales tax. The wholesaler then adds his own profit to the price he has just paid and sells it to the greengrocer (The cost of the apple now consists of the cost of growing the apple, the farmers profit, the farmers sale tax, the wholesaler?s profit and the wholesalers sales tax - this isn't including distribution or transport because my head may explode!). The greengrocer now sells that apple to you or me for the cost of growing the apple, the farmer?s profit, the farmer?s sale tax, the wholesaler?s profit, the wholesaler?s sales tax, the greengrocers profit and the greengrocer?s sales tax. So ultimately, who pays the tax? The answer is it's you and I.

Now here's the killer - on average, all those taxes have to equal £15,000 per person per year. To make this happen, your sales tax MUST raise £15k per year, which works out to £1250 per month, or around £300 per week. This is why I said it will have to push your weekly shop from £100 per week to £400.

"The sales tax is really the automated payment transaction tax and wouldn't need to be that big a tax percentage when you consider the vast amount of monetary transactions that there are on a daily/monthly/yearly basis"

Not true, for the reasons detailed above, it will need to raise £15,000 per person per year.

MrJudgeyPants · 09/07/2012 11:46

niceguy2

"the euro will be the next global reserve currency."

I can't see this happening. The fact that this crisis has taken so long before they've even begun to fix it (not that they've started yet), and the fact that all the politicians and leaders are reluctant to take decisive action, coupled with the 'rockchuckers' and rioters from places like Greece whenever major reform is required, makes the Euro look weak in the eyes of the rest of the world. This is exactly why it wont ever be a global reserve currency.

There'll be even less chance if it becoming so if it defaults too.

niceguy2 · 09/07/2012 11:52

I agree judgey. It was Claig who says it was citing a newspaper article.

I don't think it will be the global reserve currency in my lifetime anyway

YoYoYoItsTillyMinto · 09/07/2012 18:25

corrupt

"The sales tax is really the automated payment transaction tax and wouldn't need to be that big a tax percentage when you consider the vast amount of monetary transactions that there are on a daily/monthly/yearly basis"

the Total would still need to be £15K for each person living in Bristol. your sales tax cannot raise £15K pp unless it collects on average £15K pp.

toptramp · 09/07/2012 23:12

I disagree. Those who work harder should earn more. A doctor should earn more than a cleaner for eg.

JosephineCD · 09/07/2012 23:39

Ridiculous idea. Inflation would shoot through the roof, and before long, £15,000 wouldn't be enough to live on. Not to mention the question of where all the money would be found to pay £15k to everyone in the country. It would also send immigration more out of control than ever.

CorruptBstard · 10/07/2012 22:07

Hi judgypants. Yup, real life has got in my way the last few days as well. Just started reading your reply and obviously its going to take a while for me to digest and reply.

But I've just read your welfare pot splitting idea.

My first reaction was "so you want to take from the welfare recipients and give to the wealthy"

But actually I Absolutely agree with it in principle. It's the same thing as a basic income, except its not enough money, but its the same principle isn't it.

So the issue is being able to raise the amount of money in the pot to be split, equally between all.

So we do have some common ground and that is that we both agree in giving everyone an amount of free money. Am i correct ;-)

OP posts:
MrJudgeyPants · 10/07/2012 23:34

Hi Corrupt. "It's the same thing as a basic income, except its not enough money, but its the same principle isn't it."

It is exactly the same principle as a basic income except that we know that we can afford this.

"So the issue is being able to raise the amount of money in the pot to be split, equally between all."

Yes - we need to know that we can raise the money in a sustainable way and spend it without ruining the economy through inflation.

"we both agree in giving everyone an amount of free money. Am i correct ;-)"

To a point! I'm a Libertarian. I believe in shrinking the role of the state wherever possible. At the moment, the state has assumed for itself the role of arbiter of people's circumstances. It has, accidentally, given us a system whereby if your circumstances match a certain criteria, the state will provide for you. The idea was that this would act as a safety net, and God knows, we need something like this in the current climate. The problem with the current system is that it is perfectly possible to manipulate your circumstances to maximise your claim (I'm not supposing for one second that most claimants are guilty of this but that it happens cannot be denied). For example, having a child bumps you up the priority list for social housing, or opting to kick the father out and raising the child in a single parent household can net more benefit etc, etc, etc. By accident, the state has created an incentive scheme where the more that you can screw your life up, the more unemployable you can become and the less chance you have of making something of yourself the more money / freebies you are given.

The system I propose, where this basic income can be borrowed against when needed, puts the individual in charge of their own welfare. It eliminates the 'gaming' of the system because you aren't cheating the welfare system, you are simply denying yourself. It encourages returning to work as soon as possible. It doesn't come with a penalty for returning to work and it's cheap to administer.

If the money could be used in this way, (i.e. lending and borrowing against it) it would provide a government guaranteed line of credit to everyone in the country. Once this is recognised, the fact that the sum of money involved is relatively small becomes irrelevant.

CouthyMow · 11/07/2012 22:46

Xenia. In the politest way ever, you would get £18,000 a year housing benefit about as much as I would get to turn rainbow coloured and fly overhead.

I am a Lone Parent with 4 DC in a 4-Bed Housing Association house. My rent is £720 PCM. The MAXIMUM LHA I can receive (if I am unemployed, it will be half that if I take a NMW job...) is £595 PCM.

Which by my reckoning totals just £7,140. Less than half the pie-in-the-sky figure you appear to have plucked out of your arse thin air.

That is all.

CouthyMow · 11/07/2012 22:47

Aw crap. Didn't do too well with the no swearing there. Grin

CouthyMow · 11/07/2012 23:04

And my rent IS in the cheapest 30% in my town for a 4-bed. So if I have to pay a top-up of £125 PCM when I am unemployed, what exactly do the people who CAN'T find a home in the cheapest 30% of houses that size in my town have to pay?

And NOT everyone who NEEDS a property in the cheapest 30% in a town can have one - as most of them WILL ALREADY HAVE PEOPLE LIVING IN THEM.

What people fail to understand is that the cheapest 30% of rents in a town will be held by older people living in larger council houses that have lived there for 20 years+.

You can no longer GET those tenancies - Housing Association tenancies, which make up the bulk of any Social Housing tenancies for the last 20 years, as Councils sold stock to HA's, are more expensive, and private Tenancies are more expensive than that.

The cheapest 30% of houses in a town will, by definition, be housing that is totally unavailable until their tenant dies, and often not even then, as those tenants will STILL have the option of passing on the tenancy to an adult child that is also resident in the property at the time of their death, as per the tenancy agreement they signed. As that is a legally binding document, that right cannot be taken away from those that still possess it.

So no-one CAN get a property in the cheapest 30% of rents, so even the most poverty stricken family has to take money meant to feed their family in order to keep a roof over their head now.

Corrupt, your idea is bollocks, and I'm about as lefty as they come now. Even little old lefty me can see that it just won't work, because it doesn't take someone like me into account.

I am a Lone Parent. Who is disabled enough that there is no way I could manage to work FT. OK, you say, you may be capable of working PT then. Erm, no, not always - I can work PT at best, not at all at worst. And even when I AM capable of work, there is the small matter of the fact that two of my DC's ALSO have disabilities. Which means that while I might be for for work on a particular day - THEY will need me to care for them.

As the current system can't cope with that situation at all - what would you do about the fact that in a household with 5 people in it, 3 of them have disabilities that cost lots more than a normal household containing 5 people would need to spend, just to achieve the basics? £15k just wouldn't cut it if you added up everything that was needed to cope with a challenging set of circumstances like mine. So how would the extra support needed be tailored to my situation?

CouthyMow · 11/07/2012 23:14

'Opting' to 'kick the father out?! I really HAVE heard everything now. The ONLY single parent Mother's on benefits that I know that WERE the ones to instigate the end of their relationship are the ones where the father either cheated on her or where there was SEVERE abuse towards her. And it took those mothers, on average, 6 years to leave their partners AFTER they became abusive. And they are only on benefits for between 2-4 years while they stabilise their family living arrangements, sort out court proceedings and retrain as they have often been SAHM's or in very PT, NMW jobs, often cleaning PT around their Ex's work or being MDA's. They can't continue with these jobs due to an effective 99% tax rate and no help with child are costs as they weren't working enough hours, and they often need to retrain to get ANY FT job.

That is the most prejudiced, ill-informed piece of guff I have seen spouted in a very long time.

AmberLeaf · 11/07/2012 23:26

or opting to kick the father out and raising the child in a single parent household can net more benefit etc, etc, etc. By accident, the state has created an incentive scheme where the more that you can screw your life up the more unemployable you can become and the less chance you have of making something of yourself the more money / freebies you are given

You are having a fookin laff!

Yep cos the country is full of single mothers who kicked out perfectly decent fathers/partners just so they could get a bit of that glamourous single parent benefits lifestyle.

CouthyMow · 11/07/2012 23:29
MrJudgeyPants · 11/07/2012 23:43

"(I'm not supposing for one second that most claimants are guilty of this but that it happens cannot be denied)"

Which bit of that sentence did you not read?

claig · 11/07/2012 23:49

Can I have the Daily Mail? Such valuable information should not be used for a knockabout!

AmberLeaf · 11/07/2012 23:54

Yep Claig you can have it after I've used it to line the cat litter tray. How bout that? [Grin]

claig · 11/07/2012 23:57

My cat refuses to use the Daily Mail for that; it will only accept the Guardian!

AmberLeaf · 11/07/2012 23:59

I lied.

I don't have a cat anymore.

I will crap on it.

claig · 12/07/2012 00:02

'I don't have a cat anymore.
I will crap on it.'

No wonder. I expect the cat walked out when it witnessed the shocking lack of standards and respect for the Daily Mail.

CouthyMow · 12/07/2012 00:05

I read all of it, MrJudgeyPants. I just disagree wholeheartedly with it, as I have yet to meet ONE single mum that kicked a perfectly good partner/father out or GOT pregnant TO get a council flat. And that's pure bollocks anyway - you DO realise that there is no way a teen mum with a baby is going to leapfrog a couple who have been on the housing list with two DC's for 3 years, as time waiting is taken into account? It would be a pretty shit way of trying to get their own house or flat, as it DOESN'T WORK LIKE THAT. I have yet to meet ANYONE, even those with reasonably severe LD's, who think that they can have a baby to be given a house, or even have one in order to GET a larger house...

MrJudgeyPants · 12/07/2012 00:25

CouthyMow There are two friends of mine who each had a baby - in both cases, the fathers (both useless tossers) buggered off mid-pregnancy and left them to raise their children on their own. One of the girls was shocked at the level of benefit she was entitled to, got herself a nice flat, paid for entirely with HB, and told me in her own words that she was better off on benefit than she was when she was working by quite a margin.

The other already owned her own home and was self-employed in a relatively low paying job. She also admitted to being quite comfortably looked after by the taxpayer.

Neither of these girls are intending to have another child but it isn't beyond the wit of man to see that there is little financially to deter them if they so wanted to.

One might be tempted to suppose that an unskilled school leaver - who will be having the devil's own job trying to find work at the moment and at best, can hope for a minimum wage position - would be mad not to at least contemplate this option.