Scrap Benefits and pay every adult, working, non working or retired, an unconditional basic income of £15,000 a year? Discuss

[CorruptBstard]

Hi

Ok Mumsnet, what do you think of this?

Pay every adult in the uk £15,000 a year, with no conditions attached, so that every adult is free to use their time to do stuff, just for the love of it.

This basic income would cover basic needs for food and shelter, if people wanted to earn more money they could go and work for someone else or start a business of their own

This would abolish poverty in one fell swoop.

Wheres the money coming from to pay for it?

well apart from scrapping all "state benefits", we could also scrap income tax and fund it all by taxing money every time its spent.

ie Government gives me £5. I pass that £5 round a group of 10 friends. By the time the £5 comes back to me, it has been "spent" 10 times. Creating a turnover of £50. If the government taxes that spending at 20%, it raises £10 in tax. Making a profit of £5.


Thoughts?

If you recieved £15,000 a year unconditionally, what would you do just for the love of it?

[Ryoko]

Your still giving people money for nothing, by giving everyone money for nothing instead of a few you open the flood gates for increases in the prices of utilities and services etc.

Look at house prices do you really think they would have reached the stupidity that it has if it wasn't for mortgages? no of course not, everyones greedy they will charge as much as they can, thus prices of things will all go up to swallow your 15k while the NMW drops to next to nothing, after a few busineses lobby government.

Or workfare will be extended and there will be no NMW jobs only a national service style tax of working x amount of time a year in jobs currently done by public sector workers (thats sounds pretty soviet too).

[CorruptBstard]

hi doggiemumma, no it wouldnt strangle economy, spending money creates turnover, creates effectively new money, and it would be a very sall percentage in tax.

so for another link but heres one to explain the tax. its not my site by the way, so its not self promotion again ;-)

www.apttax.com/

[leelteloo]

You want positive feedback the same way you want 15k for nothing. Both totally unreasonable!

[ReallyTired]

Why would anyone want to clean a toilet or some other lowly paid shitty job if they are automatically given 15K. Inflation would go mad and 15K would become worthless.

[EmilieFloge]

I get benefits, think I get a bit over that including HB and I would PREFER this because it would mean I was free to work without worrying about the red tape. I could work around school hours and holidays and not be penalised.

I could do LOADS of different jobs and not have to worry about declaring things, HB being stopped by mistake because there's a mix up over my hours, having to report to people all the time. etc etc

I would not give a toss about the drop in income. The fact it delivered so much freedom to work would be fantastic.

[UnimaginitiveDadThemedUsername]

This is also known as the Citizen's Income

[ReallyTired]

I thought the present govenants wants to set up a univesal income which is 10K rather than 15K. However those who are able bodied without caring responsiblies wouldn't be able to sit on their arse.

Surely what is needed is a way of tracking people's income better so there aren't nightmares about housing benefit being cancelled or over paying child tax credits.

[CorruptBstard]

rimmer....vat only covers a small amount of transactions and goods. the automated payment transaction tax covers ALL transactions. evey time money is spent.

yes every adult, working, unemployed, retired, student, all get the basic income payment

all other state benefits are scrapped

[CorruptBstard]

ryoko its index linked to inflation

[MrsCog]

Ryoko sums my concerns better than I can.

I think you have a fair point in proposing some kind of 'standard benefit' as the system is so complicated at the moment that it costs far too much to run. I would propose something similar but a 2 tier system - a higher rate for people who can't work such as carers, disabled etc. and then a lower rate for people who need help and for pensioners (who if they've worked their whole life should have savings/pension etc. to help subsidise their income). People in work shouldn't need anything, but you could keep child benefit - maybe even increase it to help with childcare costs but remove the childcare portion of tax credits.

Even so, this is still probably majorly flawed!

[CorruptBstard]

really tired..........cleaning toilets would then have to become a really wellpaid job to attract the staff

[CorruptBstard]

leetleloo............what would you do if i gave you the money every year?

[MrsCog]

And yes - the impact on inflation would be horrendous. As an example look how much student rents have increased since students got loans of 3-4k per annum to spend on living costs.

[CorruptBstard]

emmilleflogge you would be free to earn money from work too, so you may end p even better off

[CorruptBstard]

rampant inflation doesnt seem to have happened with all the "quantative easing" and "bank bailouts" weve had recently, and all they are doing is creating money out of nothing and putting into the economy, so why would people having £15,000 to pay their rent and food bills for a year do it?

[AgentProvocateur]

With an extra 15k a year, I'd pay people to iron my clothes and clean my house. I'd also eat out more and use taxis more. I'd carry on working in my relatively well-paid, enjoyable job but the money would give me more leisure time.

[CorruptBstard]

example the greek bailout cost £250 billion. for £100billion LESS they could have paid every greek adult a basic income of £15,000

[CorruptBstard]

thank you aentprovocateur

[MrsCog]

QE is slightly different as it doesn't put money directly in to the pockets of consumers. If everyone had 15K utility companies etc. would know they had room to increase prices as people had more spare cash.

[EmilieFloge]

I'm not worried about earning more. I can't even do voluntary work without filling in forms and ringing up to check and writing letters about whether it's allowed or not.

It's awful. The thing I like most about the idea though is that it might just cut down on the amount of fraud - if people know they will have enough to live on, in a basic sense, and can't claim anything extra, there would be no point doing the things people tend to get upset about - for instance people not declaring work, or having zillions of children just to get a council house, or any other typical DM favourites.

I'm sure something else would happen instead though. No system is going to work perfectly. I'm not convinced on the 20% tax thing either but then again I am no good at these things.

Taking away the stigma from benefits would be a good thing too imo.

[rimmerfleadick]

Mrs Cog

Or companies offer lower salaries.

[merrymouse]

Move to somewhere beautiful where housing is cheap. On the other hand I think lots of people would have the same idea so it might not stay cheap.

[Chubfuddler]

If the government give you a fiver and it is taxed at 20% every time it changes hands between you and your friends, you aren't going to get a fiver back are you? You seem to be under the mistaken impression money materialises from nowhere, like the labour party and my five year old.

[CorruptBstard]

where does QE put the cash then?

people would hardly have more cash, after paying rent and food bills and its index linked to inflation.

really enjoying this idscussion, but have to get back to work, hopefully catch up on the thread later tonight. wasnt expecting so many responses so soon

learned alot though, especially the main objections so cheers ;)

[overmydeadbody]

It would just cause inflation.

It would be better if everybody got a basic income but had to work to get it, in the community, and they felt they had earned their money, rather than just being given it.


Enough people already think they are entitled to something for nothing in this country. It would only make that worse.