Gove: Does he make everyone want to vomit?

[orangeandlemons]

That man. Ugh! He makes me feel sick. The trout pout, the hair, the smarm, th fucking zealot madman policies.

Words cannot express

Have you ever been in the army?

The point is we need more independent thinkers, not less. The ability to think independently is highly prized amongst emplyers if I am not mistaken. independent thinking would encourage less reliance on the state. Surely independence means the ability to rely on oneself?
So why are so many employers turning their noses up at the kids coming out of the current state system?

Independent thinking is one thing. Inability to listen to instructions and kids thinking they know better than their employers or superiors is another thing entirely.

Interestingly he was state school educated and got a scholarship into private later.

he is not at all from a posh background.

So those "public school boy" accusations are a bit besides the point.

Who has been making public schoolboy accusations? Mind you, he was educated privately from the age of 11, so doesn't have any personal experience of state secondary education, however poor his background. I was entirely state educated, but went to a grammar school in Kent and therefore would not claim to be an expert on the "bog standard comprehensive" and its failings. I can claim not to have the rose tinted spectacles that some people have with regard to a grammar school system, however. Hankering after grammar schools is still ignoring the education of the vast majority - and it is not as if it's the children who could have got into grammar schools if they existed in great number are the ones, generally, who are completely unemployable at the end of school in any event - it's the others who were just as let down by the grammar school system as they are by the current education system that are causing the most hair tearing and complaining.

But you referred to independent thinkers

Inability to listen to instructions and thinking they are better than their employers is an attitude thing, not independent thinking. Attitudes usually (not always) come from parents

An independent thinker solves problems for themselves. I haven't found this affects listening ability or attitude

As a slight aside, does anyone ever leave school ready for work? I spent a year temping after university before I was actually employable, before then I wouldnt have given myself a job licking stamps. And that was 20 years ago.

Probably not, headfairy. But there's a world of difference between being pompous and unskilled (as I was) and being illiterate and innumerate and without any work ethic.

True... Me too (pompous and unskilled), I thought I was going to walk in to some high flying city job and earn millions like something out of Working Girl!

I thought I was God's Gift to employment when I started at a car dealership. I spent a week on the front desk and then, when I became too much for everyone to bear, 6 weeks cleaning cars. I only kept the job because the boss was a friend of my dad's.

Who referred to independent thinkers (as opposed to people who do NOT think independently)? I thought it was you, orangeandlemons? I thought the current government was more of the belief that you need a sound knowledge and skills base from which to build your independent thought, first, and that the problem with the state sector is that it tries to enable independent thought in a vacuum of actual knowledge and understanding, thus creating a lot of people who talk a load of vacuous rubbish, cut and pasted from the internet. I also get the impression that they don't genuinely believe all children are capable of being taught independent thought, as they have a hard enough time grasping the basic facts in the first place, from which higher order, independent thinking flows. I think the secret suspicion is that you are either capable of independent thought or you aren't, and if you are, you need a different style of teaching, separate from those who need to be taught how to go through the motions.

And when it comes to employers, isn't the general complaint that they are ready to teach new recruits the skills necessary specifically for the business in question, provided their employees can at least turn up to work well presented, on time, capable of talking politely and articulately in person and on the telephone, with basic IT skills, an ability to concentrate and listen to what is said to them, and intact basic numeracy and literacy skills? These aren't the skills of independent thought, are they?

I think Gove is brilliant and I like his ideas on education reform.

Gove has an unscientifically based desire for a 1950s style education system. I cannot stand the man. DP is HT whose phone autocorrects 'give' with 'Gove' and this had been a source of swearing Chez Mintos....

You obviously haven't seen the dreadful, incomplete missives being sent into schools from Mr Gove's offices, orwellian. They would make a book written by a monkey look competent.

Our headteacher is absolutely baffled about how to set pay scales next year, how to set performance targets from the awful new 'standards', how to manage on a deficit budget, etc, etc.... the list goes on.

In addition to this, she has spent months writing the school evaluation plan, which entailed having to work out the progress of 'significant groups' (e.g. FSM, male, female, SEN). Against all statistical reasoning, a 'group' (according to new Ofsted guidelines) can be made up of two children! So we have screeds of meaningless statistics, supposedly to show 'trends' of vulnerable groups.

IMVVVHO it's all a load of toss.

Lesbian/gay and transgender. Don't forget them...

Yeah, FM. Didn't want to offend the group of 2 reading my post.

He IS the Antichrist, come to Earth in order to destroy children's joy, creativity and diversity...

The man is an ass.

Or, as the Nobby joke goes, he isn't the front end of an ass, he isn't the back end of an ass, he is no end of an ass.

Theres no getting away from the fact that our dc's academic results are a disgrace compared to other nations considering as we are a first world country. If we want to continue to enjoy our large welfare state/ eduation and health provision we need a well educated population who can compete for business with the rest of the world and continue to fund this provision. for too long the brightest of our cohort has been all too often ignored by the government who have told our teachers to concentrate all their attention on the average and belo average. Why because in terms of numbers they are the biggest section and would generate more votes from their parents. Every other country knows in order to get the best professionals who generate the most employment and taxes tey need to nuture their most able pupils. british Industry cannot recruit trained individuals for highly specialised posts so have to hire from abroad. Companies such as BAE systems who can only recruit british nationals complain about the standard of the british candidates they interview but have no choice but to hire them. This is very worrying consdering their role is defence of the realm. I'm fed up of teachers moaning, my job is stressful and I don't get 12 weeks holiday a year. They need to get in the real world and realise schools are not there to provide them with a job but to educate our children to a standard which enables them to compete with the rest of the world.

We desperately need grammar schools to come back.

I'm not in favour of grammars or a system which concentrates on one particular section/ ability and ignores the others. We need skilled and unskilled manual workers too if our economy is to be productive. Think plumber and hospital cleaner both vital jobs IMO. Schools need to cater equally for all ability groups and the government should not assume the academic route is the only way but we need to accept some dc will be academic and others are need more practical subjects. I support the idea choosing which route dc should follow at 14 when their interests/ ability levels are more formed. One of the best things about the old polytechnics was how they gave academic support to people who did not have traditional qualifications to access higher education to further there careers. My cousin left school at 16 as he wasn't academic, did a car mechanic apprenticeship with Ford and ended up doing a part time engineering degree funded by his employer several years later and is now a director of another company. So we also need education to support workers through out their working life in order to upskill and remain competitive.

I think one of the best ways to improve schools, is to do what is done in a lot of other countries. Students should not be alloed to progress onto the next year, unless they have made sufficient progress in their current year. This would do a lot to change student attitudes imo.

I have a colleague who swapped with an American colleague for a year. Shesaid where she was, all the students were really keen and pleasant, because they had to get through the year, in order to progress. She couldn't believe the difference in attitude to UK

Still loathe Gove though

But, with the re-introduction of an 'academic' curriculum, some children, however hard they try, will not be able to achieve the required grades to progress to the next year. Imagine how demoralising that would be.

I think Gove is a man with contradictory ideas. He's introduced measures with so many loose ends, no-one knows what they're doing. Performance pay is the next big thing, but there are no guidelines for pay advancement and the unions will have a field day should any disputes arise (as, inevitably, they will, particularly with the new capability procedures)).

From what I read in the press, I would imagine secondary school teachers are tearing their remaining hairs out with the introduction of new GCSEs and A levels, new targets, no coursework, eBacc with non-academic 16 year olds, school until 18 for everyone, etc, etc.

Quite honestly, it's a mess.

School till 18 is a ridiculous idea.