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Politics

The Tories are sorting out the wealthy tax-avoidant

325 replies

LittleFrieda · 11/04/2012 12:19

members of our society. Why on earth did Labour fail to act during their long term in office? Eh? Eh?

I can't believe people are complaining about George Osborne doing something about it.

OP posts:
JuliaScurr · 16/04/2012 12:10

Russia 1917 rich bankers
Really? You sure?
We've still got a lot of them, so fingers crossed

minimathsmouse · 16/04/2012 12:17

Yes the bank of England was/is still a private bank backed with private cash and gold reserves. As was the USA Federal reserve. Trotsky was in the states in 1914-1917 I think. He was put up at the expense of the rothschilds or Shiffs (jewish bankers) the same bankers lent money to both sides during WW1 and WW11 and during the cold war. www.wildboar.net/multilingual/easterneuropean/russian/literature/articles/whofinanced/whofinancedleninandtrotsky.html

JuliaScurr · 16/04/2012 13:21

Oh, God - Elders of Zion, anyone? 'Jewish bankers' Please stop

ttosca · 16/04/2012 13:31

'niceguy'-

I think this is where we differ.

Yes, it's called economic ignorance.

I and thankfully many others believe that the amount of debt you owe IS important. So is the amount of time you owe it for.

'Many others' don't believe this. Economists don't rate absolute debt as important. They always refer to GDP/debt ratio. For good reason.

Your argument is like saying that it is better for someone on minimum wage to be £10,000 in debt than it is for a millionaire to be £20,000 in debt - simply because the absolute value of the debt is lower in the first case. It's absurd, and patently stupid.

What you are saying is that it doesn't matter what I actually owe anyone. Just as long as a proportion of my income it's fairly low. I do understand your argument. I just think you are wrong. I believe it does matter.

Look at it another way. Let's say I have £1000 on my overdraft. Each year I ask my bank to raise my overdraft because hey....i'm getting a payrise. As a proportion of my income, it's fine. What you are saying is that there's no problem because I don't actually owe loads. But wind the clock forwards thirty years. So you think my bank manager would be unreasonable to say "Erm....when will I get my money back? You've owed me this money now for thirty years"

Christ. If you had an account with a bank, and your income grew annually (say, you got a 3% pay rise every year), your bank would be more than happy to keep offering extending your overdraft, so long as your income exceeded your overdraft proportionately.

Why? Because a) The bank knows that with a greater income, it is easier for you to pay the money back, and b) Because it is earning interest on your overdraft.

Which brings us to the second point:

It is not debt which is important, though the GDP/debt ratio is more significant. What is most important is the deficit. I've explained this to you 1000x before. When the deficit reaches above around 7% or 8%, then lenders become nervous, because they worry about the long-term ability to pay back the debts. Stupidly, this also results in an increase in borrowing costs, which means that deficit can spiral out of control. That is the most important worry during the financial crisis. It is why Greece is having difficulties, and Spain is on the brink.

Also, you are applying old rules in a new world. You are arguing that historically we owed more and everything worked. Yes maybe so. But that was based upon a time where everyone, bankers included thought that sovereign western governments would not default on loans. Iceland and Greece put a stop to that stupid notion. Now everyone with a brain understands that not even a government can borrow money indefinitely so the risks are higher.

This is just goobledy gook. What does 'not even a government can borrow money indefinitely' mean? Governments pay interest on loans. Western governments defaulted on loans because the deficit rose too high, and they couldn't afford to pay back on interest payments. The deficit skyrocketed because the financial crisis was transformed in to a sovereign debt crisis, but governments bailing out Capitalism in order so that the whole system didn't come crashing down. Didn't you notice that various Western governments started having problems reducing their deficits right after the financial crisis of 2008?

Lastly I do find it amusing how you are arguing that there is no debt/deficit problem. That we can and should continue borrowing because hey...there's no problem. Yet blame the very people we are borrowing money from (ie. the banks) for creating the recession in the first place. Maybe...just maybe if we hadn't have borrowed so much money in the first place, banks would not be in such a financially precarious position and we wouldn't also have to dance to their tune.

You're insane and unwilling to actually listen to any reasoning or arguments and you completely ignore any facts presented to you. You confuse debt with deficit and debt with GDP/debt ratio. Your grasp of fundamental economics is lacking.

Furthermore, your attitude is nasty and pernicious. People struggle with stagnating or declining wages over three decades, while the cost of living rises and house prices skyrocket - all due to neo-liberal policies. Naturally, this cut off demand. Without hocus pocus, this would have caused a decades long recession.

In order to keep the Capitalist machinery going, the banks pushed cheap credit on to people and sold the debts, after whitewashing the risks using credit-rating agencies. So the Capitalist machinery kept going, with no one having any money, and living in a huge bubble. Meanwhile, Capitalist profits soared, while everyone else had no money except in the form of debt, which they relied upon to live.

Finally, it all comes crashing down, and instead of blaming neo-liberal policies for attacking wages, workers rights, and pushing privatization, reduction in public services, etc. you blame ordinary citizens for daring to demand to want to maintain their living standards, and feed and cloth their kids, and live in a house, while a tiny minority of millionaires and billionaires soak up the wealth of nation for themselves.

Your attitude is ignorant, pernicious, and disgraceful.

niceguy2 · 16/04/2012 13:40

Mini, I do not believe I have been rude at all to Ttosca in this thread at all. And if you look in other threads, I believe you will find Ttosca hurling many insults in my direction and I doubt you will find me responding in kind.

In actual fact I am trying to argue that the UK government is definitely NOT immune to the forces of the worldwide economy. That is why I believe that punitive taxes on the rich is futile without global coordination. That is why I believe we as a nation must live within our current means. Not borrowing money to pay for spending we cannot afford now in the expectation that economic growth will repay our debts the future.

It's why I think we need to sort out our deficit as a priority and not keep borrowing more & more. A view which all three main parties share.

niceguy2 · 16/04/2012 13:43

ooops, crosspost with ttosca. Think it's plain for all to see who is being rude to whom. The evidence is clear to see.

Once you start tossing insults and calling people ignorant, nasty and insane then in my opinion you just blow apart your own case.

Clearly our opinions differ. I accept that. It seems one of us cannot.

ttosca · 16/04/2012 13:50

@Josephine. It's ok, I'm used to Ttosca's insults. He/she uses them in an attempt to hide from the fact his/her logic is fundamentally flawed and not supported by the overwhelming majority of the public.

You have no idea what you're talking about. You don't even know the difference between debt and deficit.

Look at it another way.

Out of the 3 main parties, all three of them said there would be austerity measures.

No, in fact, they didn't. All three of them studiously avoided talking about austerity measures in the run-up to the election, if you recall. They avoided the subject completely.

The only difference between them was how much and over what period. The Tories promised to cut harder & faster but reality has forced them to adopt a more Labour timetable. And based on that between the three main parties they polled 90% of the votes.

Ttosca will now attempt to argue that all three parties are wrong.

They're not 'wrong'. The three are simply all neo-liberal parties. The political system is monopolised by pro-free-market neo-liberal ideologues - to varying degrees. The fact that all three parties are increasingly indistinguishable is the reason the percentage of the population who have vote has steadily decreased for over a half-century.

And therefore 90% of the voters were wrong for voting for them and in fact there is no problem at all, it's all some huge conspiracy by the rich which 90% of the population have been suckered into.

You're an idiot. I didn't say there was 'no problem at all', as I've stated several thousand times down.

What I've actually said was the the problems we are experiencing now are the result of the financial crisis, and has led to governments having deficit problems, which are too high, causing expensive interest payments, and risk starting a deficit spiral.

I said the solution was not austerity measures, but investment. This is for two reasons:

a) The public should not pay for a crisis not of their own making. This is the moral argument.

b) Austerity is dampening economic recovery, as it cuts off demand. This is the pragmatic / economic argument.

Is this too complicated for you? I'm sick of explaining myself 1000 times. Can you please try to get a grasp of what I'm saying instead of simply repeating your voodoo economics over and over again?

niceguy2 · 16/04/2012 13:57

It's always a pleasure reading your responses Ttosca.

Let me ask you this. If all three main parties have been monopolised by neo-liberal ideologues (as you put it), then why has there been no credible alternative party? I mean we still live in a democracy right? Surely there'd be lots of good people such as yourself who would put themselves forward to stand for parliament and millions more who would vote for them?

minimathsmouse · 16/04/2012 14:31

I'm an antisemite now Confused I'm going to ignore that.

Excellent post Ttosca.

Why is there no credible alternative? I think many of us are wondering the same thing.

Roseformeplease · 16/04/2012 14:41

Confused Is this now officially a bin fight? Shall I bring coffee and cake?

Roseformeplease · 16/04/2012 14:41

Bun not bin - although a bin fight also sounds fun!

rabbitstew · 16/04/2012 15:30

When it comes to bins, who ever thought it was a good idea to have lids you have to push in towards the trash? I much prefer roll top ones that open up away from the rubbish, as you only need to flick those open and then they stay that way as long as you like without getting food all over them, you can flick them closed without having to touch the lid too much, and the back of the lid never rolls down lower than the level of the top of the bin.

As for buns, I prefer savoury to sweet.

rabbitstew · 16/04/2012 15:32

Stale from the bin might be best in a fight, though. Unless you are going for full cream on face coverage, in which case a fresh cream bun might be quite good, but expensive.

daffodilly2 · 16/04/2012 19:05

I've enjoyed reading this thread. Keep going. Different views are stimulating.

I concur with the opinion that big business do what they like and public scorn would enable some tighter international laws on the likes of google. It worries me how successive governments seem to be so timid with large corporations and this power needs to be asuaged. I think the public outcry about bank bonuses is a start - it forces a shift however small in the right direction - for my taste more to the left!

EdlessAllenPoe · 16/04/2012 19:05

a Bin fight?

what a load of rubbish ! :)

boom boom.

claig · 16/04/2012 19:12

'what a load of rubbish!'

Grin
minimathsmouse · 16/04/2012 21:30

I haven't been following the Google news. I heard on the radio that they have avoided paying tax here, are they paying tax anywhere else?

Maybe we should compile a list of companies that have been avoiding tax along with their yearly profit.

EdlessAllenPoe · 16/04/2012 21:35

all companies avoid tax. if they are sensible.

i don't believe that any new legislation is going to effectively tackle avoidance.

the government uses clever lawyers to draft legislation - teams of clever accountants then have until forever to pick it apart and find the best - most tax-efficient - working for each client.

I think tackling illegal non payment properly would be more to the point, rather than shifting the goal posts, why not tackle those things we know to be fouls?

claig · 16/04/2012 21:39

Could it be that some of these companies are what is known as 'philanthropists'?

niceguy2 · 17/04/2012 09:46

Mini, it depends what you define as 'avoided paying tax'.

As I mentioned earlier, one of the fundamental points of the EU is the ability for any company anywhere in an EU country, to access a single market.

So is a Irish based company selling widgets in England and paying corporation tax in Ireland a tax avoider? I would argue not.

So if you are now the CEO of Google in the US. You want to expand your business in the EU. So you need somewhere to set up a legal presence. So you set up your business in an EU country where you think you will pay the least tax. Is that an immoral tax avoidance tactic or a sound business decision? I would again argue the latter.

minimathsmouse · 17/04/2012 13:05

Niceguy2, agreed. The problem is global and therefore needs a global solution. I use ebay alot for my business, whilst I am based in the uk ebay is based is lichtenstein. They make a huge amount of money globally but are based where the tax system most benefits them. Who can blame them.

In some ways the markets are levelling the field as governments race to offer better conditions to global business. China and Indonesia where wages are cripplingly low spells disaster for us. We can not compete unless we sell our waged labour below or at similar levels. We could concentrate on design and tech but the Indians are undercutting us on computer technology and programming now. I don't know what the answer is, I don't think the moderate democratic left has the answer and I don't think doing nothing is an option either, unless we are happy to sleep walk into mass impoverishment. If governments make us sell our labour at lower & lower cost, if we privatise everything (our only way of competing is to invite outsiders to invest in social enterprise) we are on a race to the bottom. So what to do?

niceguy2 · 17/04/2012 13:53

I totally agree that we need a global solution and have said so previously. Failing that, at the minimum an EU wide solution. The only realistic one is harmonising taxes across the EU but I cannot see that realistically happening in my lifetime. The UK is now just a bit player on the world stage so having punitive policies is self defeating. As part of the EU though which is the world's second biggest market, the EU would have the clout to bring corporations into line.

But I disagree that low wages in Asia are a threat to us. For decades now China have been churning out cheap widgets which has benefited them of course but also our economies too because we can get cheap goods.

Over time this will balance out. As we can see, work is already flowing back from India because costs out there are getting to the point where there's not much difference in having the work done in certain parts of the UK.

But where I think the UK desperately needs to focus on is high end manufacturing. We cannot compete with the likes of China on making cheap widgets on a big scale but like Germany we can and should be targetting the quality end of the market. So we should have equivalents of Bosch, BMW and Mercedes.

Manufacturing creates wealth. Banking & financial services does not.

But in my opinion you cannot create a dynamic manufacturing led economy if you are punitively taxing the entrepreneurs who have invested their own money, homes, blood, sweat and tears. They'll either set up shop elsewhere or not bother in the first place.

claig · 17/04/2012 14:26

'I don't know what the answer is, I don't think the moderate democratic left has the answer'

Is the answer the mot de jour? - Philantrophy. The word previously not often heard, but which is now hip and on everyone's lips.

Even Tony Blair was on Newsnight last night talking about the 'philanthropic' movement. We've had 'anthropomorphic' climate change and now the climate has changed to a 'philanthropic', 'ethical' investment in society approach.

Philanthropy is not 'conventional poltics', it's a new ethical approach for the open-minded and optimistic. Maybe it's the New Society, the Big Society.

This is from Tony Blair's speech at the 'Global Philanthropic Forum'.

'My conclusion is about the new social contract itself. There is a political debate about globalisation ? good or bad? In my view, this is an entirely pointless discussion. Globalisation is a fact and it is propelled forward by people through technology and travel. The real debate is therefore how do we make globalisation work and for the many not the few? The answer lies, in part, in understanding that the key dividing line in politics today is less traditional ideas of left vs right, than the struggle between the open-minded and the closed, between those who see in globalisation an opportunity to open up the world so that it is not riven with conflicts of race, nation and faith; and those who find such an open world too frightening and close down in the face of it. Central to this goal is the fight against poverty and injustice, whether social, economic, or political. The open-mind seeks to imbue globalisation with common bonds and a shared sense of justice. The closed-mind seeks to retreat behind the walls of identity of race, nation and faith.

At the core of this new social contract is the open-mind: optimistic, not cynical; celebrating difference not scared of it; and believing that to be committed to the service of others, is a life purpose worth striving for. It is what you represent here: and I am honoured to be part of it, a refugee from conventional politics, who has found a new lease of life in philanthropy!'

claig · 17/04/2012 14:27

This is the transcript of the speech

www.tonyblairfaithfoundation.org/news/2012/04/16-2

claig · 17/04/2012 14:40

'The real debate is therefore how do we make globalisation work and for the many not the few?'

Phew! It's a relief that somebody cares about the many and not the few. Thank God for teh good works the philanthropist can do.

Open your mind, open your eyes and stop being myopic, embrace a new day, the Big Society way, and start being 'philanthropic'.