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Politics

The Tories are sorting out the wealthy tax-avoidant

325 replies

LittleFrieda · 11/04/2012 12:19

members of our society. Why on earth did Labour fail to act during their long term in office? Eh? Eh?

I can't believe people are complaining about George Osborne doing something about it.

OP posts:
daffodilly2 · 14/04/2012 19:01

Little frieda, What exactly do you think George Osborne is doing to remedy our dire economics?

minimathsmouse · 14/04/2012 19:41

Julia, so right, Blair is on record as saying that they would keep free market economics and tackle unemployment/low wages as the supply end!! we know where that leads as well. Growing financial debt, loss of tax revenue.

niceguy2 · 14/04/2012 20:22

Niceguy2, do you think that percentage of all tax revenue raised from the top 20% will increase over time?

I don't know...and frankly it doesn't matter to me if it increases or stays the same. I would be very concerned though if it fell.

I think the main difference of opinion is that I think that taxation is high enough already so therefore the government needs to live within it's means.

What you and many other's believe is that we should spend money first and expect the rich to then fill the gap.

This is the equivalent of me spending loads of money, going overdrawn, being on the verge of bankruptcy then blaming my (rich) employer for not paying me enough.

ttosca · 15/04/2012 13:44

Christ, there you go again, 'niceguy' with your pet obsession.

Real-term wages have steadily being decreasing for the majority of the population since the 1980s, while living costs have risen. Tens of billions of pounds in tax revenue are lost annually from tax evasion. Hundreds of billions are spent bailing out banks, much of which will never be recovered, and hundreds of billions more on wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

And you have the temerity to complain that people don't 'live within their means' or demand that the government prioritizes schools and hospitals and public infrastructure.

You are one sick puppy. It's not ordinary people who have to 'live within their means'. The majority are struggling to get by whilst a tiny minority get ever richer (and paying less and less tax as a proportion of their wealth). The problem is systemic.

If there wasn't a financial crisis which caused a recession and if we didn't have to bail out the banks hundreds of billions of pounds, we would be at 3% or less deficit right now. Tackle gross wealth and income inequality, tax evasion, and spending on the war machine, and we would have a surplus to spend on health, education, welfare, and infrastructure.

ttosca · 15/04/2012 13:44

Also: Damn right Julia.

minimathsmouse · 15/04/2012 15:52

I don't know...and frankly it doesn't matter to me if it increases or stays the same. I would be very concerned though if it fell

Surely, you have misunderstood the question, maybe I wasn't clear. At the moment the highest percentage of all revenue raised is collected from the top 20%. If wages continue to stagnate, or decrease and unemployment rises then the 20% will indeed being paying the highest percentage. It will be the wealthy who are propping up education and health. From your answer I assume that is what you want Niceguy2. That certainly isn't what they want otherwise we wouldn't be cutting back on public services.

niceguy2 · 15/04/2012 23:19

mini, the rich are already propping up the education and health system, in so far as the top 10% pay for half the services and presumbly they either don't use the NHS/state school (cos they're rich and can afford to go private) or at worst make up 10% of the users whilst contributing 50%.

The problem here is that the likes of Ttosca seem to think there are loads of billionaires who can continually pay for stuff he/she deems the government should be spending money on. The simple fact is that there isn't. There's a few. And out of them, most are not even UK nationals. Rightly or wrongly they are more like visitors. Just how do you tax a russian billionaire who owns companies all over Russia and just comes to the UK to watch his pet football team?

And as for the deficit Ttosca, again you are being economical with the truth. Quoting 3% before blaming the banks without pointing out that we've been in deficit for about 26 of the last 30 years. So you try overspending by even 1% for 30 years.......see how well your finances go?

ttosca · 15/04/2012 23:52

'niceguy'-

Why is arguing with you like hitting one's head against a brick wall? Do you actually ever absorb any facts or arguments put to you? Do you ever listen to anything being said?

Point1: Again, a minority of the population pay the majority of the total income tax revenue because wealth inequality is so great. If you want the majority of the population to pay a greater share of the total taxes, then you should fight for better pay for the majority.

You can tax increase your tax take from the wealthy by not only taxing income, but wealth, and property. This is much harder to evade than income tax.

Point2: Again, for the 1000th time... we haven't accummulated more and more debt over the past 30 years as a result of running deficits. Absolute debt is not important. Debt relative to GDP is the only important metric, since this figure indicates the ability to pay the debt back.

In fact, in 1992, the Debt/GDP ratio was at an 80 year low:

www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/downchart_ukgs.php?chart=G0-total&year=1900_2011&units=p&state=UK

Why do you keep repeating the same mistakes over and over and over and over despite being corrected 1000+ times? Do you like making a fool of yourself? Are you utterly incapable of learning?!

JosephineCD · 16/04/2012 00:19

ttosca stop being nasty. People are entitled to have a different opinion.

How do you suggest we fight for better pay for the majority?

ttosca · 16/04/2012 00:21

Tax: share the burden fairly or anger will grow

Those who dutifully pay PAYE are in danger of being squeezed and squeezed again as high earners and the super-rich perform all kinds of financial somersaults


While David Cameron is "relaxed" about revealing his tax returns, on Friday President Barack Obama took action. He disclosed that he and his wife Michelle paid just 20% on earnings of almost $800,000 last year (£504,000), below America's top rate of 35% but ahead of the Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney's 15.4%. If re-elected, Obama has promised to reform the American tax system to "ask the wealthiest Americans to pay their fair share" while protecting families on much lower incomes.

In the surreal and anarchic way in which politics, swept along by events, sometimes delivers far more than it intends, so it is with Taxgate. The question of who in society pays what, and the issue of how to rein in the overweaning profits of increasingly powerful transnational corporations (and transnational individuals who flit between countries), may yet prove a defining moment for both the US and the UK. This is a moment in which modern capitalism ? increasingly the object of anger from those it is leaving behind ? has to decide whether to recalibrate, faced with higher levels of resentment and resistance.

The most immediate manifestation of the current tax furore is, of course, the impact of George Osborne's decision to tackle what he termed "morally repugnant? aggressive tax avoidance". Tax avoidance such as moving transactions out of the UK, is legal; tax evasion ? claiming, for instance, to deduct an expense not incurred ? is not.

In the budget, Osborne announced that high earners can only claim tax relief worth 25% of their income (or £50,000, whichever is higher) in a year. The Charities Aid Foundation says that as a result, 83% of big donors will give less. The trigger for Osborne's action is a confidential study that revealed Britain's 20 biggest tax avoiders legally reduce their income tax bills by £145m in a year. Osborne was reportedly "shocked", though as chancellor, and previously shadow chancellor, it is difficult to understand why.

As chancellor, for instance, he must have been aware of the excellent research conducted by tax specialist Richard Murphy. In 2008, in a paper for the TUC, "The Missing Billions", Murphy estimated that £25bn is lost annually as a result of tax avoidance; £13bn from individuals and £12bn from the 700 largest corporations. This undermines the integrity of a tax system that is vital for a modern democracy, especially when we are meant to be "all in this together".

Taxes allow the chancellor to fund an infrastructure from which every citizen, rich or poor, benefits. This includes the shoppers at Topshop, owned by Philip Green. Green avoids paying huge sums of tax in Britain by registering his company in the name of his Monaco-based wife, Tina. The government seemed relaxed about those arrangements when they invited Green to advise on how to cut public spending. The message sent out was: it's acceptable to avoid paying taxes in Britain, even when you live here and benefit from the legal, physical and cultural infrastructure that those taxes support.

In the most recent budget, Osborne cut the 50p top tax rate by 5p; imposed a "granny tax"; and announced measures that, according to the Institute for Fiscal Studies, will pull another 1.3 million into the 40p tax bracket by 2014. This contradictory mix of measures brings to mind the late psychologist Stuart Sutherland's classic study of irrationality. "Most decisions," he wrote, "are based on intuitive estimates of probabilities." On a balance of probabilities, Osborne could not foresee just how many of these measures would create such a furore.

Osborne has a point about tax relief on donations. It can foster inequality and give the super-rich undue clout in public services and our cultural life. If Osborne contemplates robustly engaging in such a debate, however, he will need a loud voice, such is the clamour for politicians to publish their own tax returns. In the Scandinavian countries, inevitably, tax returns have been published for decades as part, it is argued, of forging civic bonds in countries where the wealth gap is not so extreme.

Last week events took a further twist in the continuing attempts to establish how much tax Ken Livingstone, a London mayoral candidate, has paid. Meanwhile, on Thursday, Google, employing 33,000 around the world, demonstrated even more clearly that this is "a golden age for capital". In the first three months of this year it made a $3bn profit. Google can domicile its profits not in each country in which it trades but wherever, in more than 100 territories, the taxes are least onerous. These arrangements are in place at the same time as many multinationals are shedding proper care of employees in regard to health, pensions and employment rights ? leaving governments and taxpayers to pick up the bill. That is morally, economically and socially wrong.

Something has to change. Obama knows it. His "Buffett Rule", named after billionaire Warren Buffett, stipulates that millionaires pay 30% of their income in tax. It attracted 60% support in one poll.

At present in the UK, cuts to benefits, pensions and social care implemented at the same time as unemployment and taxes are rising impacts most bruisingly on one section of society. Worse is to come. Last week, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development predicted that Britain could face decades of spending cuts and tax increases. If that is to be the case, then the tax burden will have to be shared equally. Those who dutifully pay PAYE are in danger of being squeezed and squeezed again as high earners and the super-rich perform all kinds of financial somersaults. This is not fair, and resentment and anger will grow if these issues are not addressed. The government could start by not inviting tax avoiders to advise them on public spending cuts.

Taxation on income (including assets) requires an overhaul. HMRC is facing significant cuts. They should be reversed so it can ensure fairness applies to all. We have a muddled chancellor, an unravelling prime minister and an apparently dumbstruck opposition (who completely failed to grasp the issue of tax avoidance and evasion while in office). As philosopher Erich Fromm argued, the glue of a sane and decent society is shared experience. That is beyond reach when the rich man in his castle benefits hugely because the tax burden is shouldered by the poor man at the castle gate.

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/apr/15/observer-editorial-tax-should-be-fair

ttosca · 16/04/2012 00:28

ttosca stop being nasty. People are entitled to have a different opinion.

What does this mean, exactly - that people should stick with the same opinion, and never change, even when presented over and over with facts contrary to their half-baked opinions?

How do you suggest we fight for better pay for the majority?

You begin by actually deciding that it is a problem to begin with. That is, you have to want to change it. Some people don't think income and wealth inequality is a problem. They will when government buildings start being lit on fire.

Wages when get better when social justice in general is fought for. This means organising civil society to fight against cuts to public services, to fight to union rights, for workers rights, for a living wage, and against discrimination of all forms.

Secondly, tax avoidance and evasion by the very rich must be addressed. A race to the bottom is not acceptable and will lead to a dangerous situation of extremes of wealth inequality, cuts to all aspects of state service, and eventually civil strife. This issue must be addressed now.

JosephineCD · 16/04/2012 00:45

ttosca, do you think that people that aren't on the left just don't know or understand the real facts?

minimathsmouse · 16/04/2012 08:27

we've been in deficit for about 26 of the last 30 years When did Thatcher get in? When did wages start to stagnate and not keep up with inflation and when did the Anglo-American (friedman) model of economics take hold. 30 years ago. There is a link between falling tax revenue and rising unemployment, wage suppression and globalisation.

NiceGuy2 you are right, we can not create loyalty from the wealthy or corporations. Government now have little control over who pay taxes and will use any means possible to suck up to global businesses, lower taxes, deregulated labour markets, bribes and even offering to wipe out their tax altogether, subsidies, cuts to property rates, the list goes on.....but rather than find out why we are in this situation, one you freely admit, instead you keep arguing that government should succumb to greater austerity even if that creates greater divides.

The balance of power is scewed and your answer appears to be.......inflict more of the same.

Anyone notice the rhetoric over health and obesity, doctors call for one thing, government ministers comment that we need to deal with this, get social workers to remove fat children, refuse medical treatment etc,,,,but who is sponsoring the games? that is because government is increasingly saying one thing and doing the opposite.

minimathsmouse · 16/04/2012 08:34

ttosca, do you think that people that aren't on the left just don't know or understand the real facts?

I won't answer for ttosca but my opinion would be NO. The democratic left is as powerless as every other party when in government. The problem is global, businesses have made this a global problem. It needs a worldwide response.

Excellent book worth reading if you are interested in why we are losing democratic rights and government are losing their right to govern and the causes of this crisis in living standards is The Silent Takeover by Noreena Hertz

rabbitstew · 16/04/2012 10:39

How can you control a group of hugely wealthy, hugely powerful individuals and corporations who don't have any ties to anywhere? A world revolt would result in world mass starvation and chaos. This country is a world leader in accelerating the process of creating hugely wealthy, hugely powerful people and corporations with no ties to anywhere in particular and therefore no interest in anything in particular besides personal wealth creation.

minimathsmouse · 16/04/2012 11:03

A world revolt would result in world mass starvation and chaos?

Similar to the questions facing the USA towards the end of WW11, to drop little Boy on Nagasaki or not? In doing so they argued that they saved lives but in dropping the bomb they killed many thousands. Do we suffer a slow decline or do we have a short sharp shock.

Naomi Klein book shock doctrine is very interesting. Capitalism uses shock tactics to bring other nations on board and get them to deregulate labour markets and privatise social/welfare/infrastructure and hand the profits over to big corporations. That's why Rumsfield rolled up in Iraq with the world's biggest multinationals CEOs in tow.

rabbitstew · 16/04/2012 11:18

How do you get a short, sharp shock if you are relying on those at the bottom, engaged in growing our food, etc, to start it? It's not showing any signs of starting any higher up and we aren't relying on the US to drop a bomb to sort it out. Nor, since the problem is not confined to one country, can we nuke the whole world and expect there to be anywhere left to live, afterwards.

niceguy2 · 16/04/2012 11:21

Absolute debt is not important. Debt relative to GDP is the only important metric, since this figure indicates the ability to pay the debt back.

I think this is where we differ. I and thankfully many others believe that the amount of debt you owe IS important. So is the amount of time you owe it for.

What you are saying is that it doesn't matter what I actually owe anyone. Just as long as a proportion of my income it's fairly low. I do understand your argument. I just think you are wrong. I believe it does matter.

Look at it another way. Let's say I have £1000 on my overdraft. Each year I ask my bank to raise my overdraft because hey....i'm getting a payrise. As a proportion of my income, it's fine. What you are saying is that there's no problem because I don't actually owe loads. But wind the clock forwards thirty years. So you think my bank manager would be unreasonable to say "Erm....when will I get my money back? You've owed me this money now for thirty years"

Also, you are applying old rules in a new world. You are arguing that historically we owed more and everything worked. Yes maybe so. But that was based upon a time where everyone, bankers included thought that sovereign western governments would not default on loans. Iceland and Greece put a stop to that stupid notion. Now everyone with a brain understands that not even a government can borrow money indefinitely so the risks are higher. Bankers rightly so are factoring in the risk of default when making loans. Just like if you were up to your neck in debt that the only people who would lend you money to buy a new TV is Brighthouse!

Lastly I do find it amusing how you are arguing that there is no debt/deficit problem. That we can and should continue borrowing because hey...there's no problem. Yet blame the very people we are borrowing money from (ie. the banks) for creating the recession in the first place. Maybe...just maybe if we hadn't have borrowed so much money in the first place, banks would not be in such a financially precarious position and we wouldn't also have to dance to their tune.

niceguy2 · 16/04/2012 11:30

@Josephine. It's ok, I'm used to Ttosca's insults. He/she uses them in an attempt to hide from the fact his/her logic is fundamentally flawed and not supported by the overwhelming majority of the public. You can see this from the way twisted half truths and lying by omission is used in Ttosca's posts.

Look at it another way.

36% voted for the Tories (aka scum in Ttosca's own words)
29% Labour
23% Lib Dems

Out of the 3 main parties, all three of them said there would be austerity measures. The only difference between them was how much and over what period. The Tories promised to cut harder & faster but reality has forced them to adopt a more Labour timetable. And based on that between the three main parties they polled 90% of the votes.

Ttosca will now attempt to argue that all three parties are wrong. And therefore 90% of the voters were wrong for voting for them and in fact there is no problem at all, it's all some huge conspiracy by the rich which 90% of the population have been suckered into.

Personally based on the balance of probabilities I think it's more likely Ttosca is wrong. But that's just my personal opinion.

rabbitstew · 16/04/2012 11:34

Maybe, just maybe, if banks hadn't lent money to people and countries they KNEW would never be able to pay them back, countries which had always paid their loans back on time wouldn't have had to risk their reputations, you mean, niceguy2. It makes sense to me that a bank would be willing to lend more to a millionnaire than a minimum wage employee who wants to buy a house, but it obviously didn't make sense to the banks. Maybe because they knew it wouldn't ultimately be their problem?

rabbitstew · 16/04/2012 11:44

Of course, you could always argue that this country's GDP in particular was always based on a big, fat lie, because we are so reliant on financial services and therefore a huge proportion of our national income is as illusory as that of the banks we are propping up. And that, therefore, countries like Germany are propping us up by helping us continue to get tax revenue from the people who lost the money in the first place. Or that the West generally is only as wealthy as the banks say it is and if the banks have decided the West no longer has any cash, then it no longer has any cash.

minimathsmouse · 16/04/2012 11:44

How do you get a short, sharp shock if you are relying on those at the bottom, engaged in growing our food, etc, to start it? It's not showing any signs of starting any higher up and we aren't relying on the US to drop a bomb to sort it out. Nor, since the problem is not confined to one country, can we nuke the whole world and expect there to be anywhere left to live, afterwards My analogy wasn't meant to be taken at face value. Sorry, perhaps it was unclear. I simply meant we act now or suffer a long a lingering decline far more painful possible more casualties.

No one should drop bombs anywhere. That was the point though, imperialist nations seeking greater control over natural resources and the supply of capital are quite happy to rain bombs down upon poorer nations, which is why I mentioned Klein's book.

In terms of change happening from the bottom, there is no time in history when this has happened before, historically the middle class have been the revolutionaries. "the squeezed middle" will be squeezed until they pop (In the most recent budget, Osborne cut the 50p top tax rate by 5p; imposed a "granny tax"; and announced measures that, according to the Institute for Fiscal Studies, will pull another 1.3 million into the 40p tax bracket by 2014). or rather drop down and join the working class. With every contraction of the economy more people are thrown into the struggling mess at the bottom. We have had more contractions or crisis within the global economy within the last 30 years than at any other time. I don't know what happens next but I can't quite see how 80-90% of the world population could be stopped if it really wanted to address wealth inequality.

JuliaScurr · 16/04/2012 11:51

minimaths
change happening from the bottom
Russia 1917
Chartists Britain 1820's
for a start

minimathsmouse · 16/04/2012 11:57

niceguy2, why attack Ttosca, by all means have an opinion but why be so rude.

You seem to be very blinkered in the way you think, it's all percentages, news paper clippings, party broadcasts and partisan politics. I could say that no one should listen to you, it's all spin and lies. You seem to vehemently believe that the UK government is immune to the forces of worldwide capital, corporations, banks, wealthy investors and institutions like the IMF, world bank, NATO, WTO etc, if no other nation is immune, why do you think we are so insulated.

minimathsmouse · 16/04/2012 12:03

Russia 1917, Trotsky was bank rolled by rich bankers. So no I don't agree, sorry Julia.

The Chartists, yes, but they didn't bring about massive changes.