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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

I STILL think Tesco should fucking well PAY THEIR STAFF. Workfare is wrong!!!!

323 replies

TapselteerieO · 22/02/2012 22:42

Still angry, I hope the protests on the 3rd of March all over the country really keep this campaign lit, it makes me furious to think people seem to assume it has been sorted.

I will boycott every company that uses schemes like this until they are ended completely.

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carernotasaint · 24/02/2012 21:22

Four Quarters you should be careful what you wish for.
righttowork.org.uk/2012/02/right-to-work-day-of-action-keeps-up-the-pressure-over-workfare/

carernotasaint · 24/02/2012 21:24

The above link shows there will be a demo at the DWP in Westminster on Wednesday 14th March when the latest unemployment figures are announced.
If you scroll down the page you will see it.

carernotasaint · 24/02/2012 21:31

Mrs DeeBee i was disgusted and appalled by those programmes last night.
Are the BBC really that terrified of losing the cash cow that is the TV licence.

carernotasaint · 24/02/2012 21:55

According To Boycott Workfare Poundland havent pulled out completely.
Theyve only suspended involvement at the moment.

MrsDeeBee · 24/02/2012 22:01

carer

I gave up on the BBC long ago !

Did you all hear/see on the evening news that our old 'friend' the delightful Mrs. Harrison has now stepped down as Chairman of A4E ?

Oh what a tangled web we weave...Wink

carernotasaint · 24/02/2012 22:13

Now a cleaning company manager talks about her unpaid workers.
The whole article is worth reading.You couldnt make it up!

www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/feb/24/jobseekers-unpaid-work-placements

garlicbutter · 24/02/2012 22:18

Bear with me, minimaths, I'm going through your post with my critical head on. I'm not making points, just thinking on thread.

the section 71 offence will require an element of coercion or deception between the defendant and the victim

There has been deception, in that claimants are asked to agree - verbally or in writing - that they will be open to offers of training or work experience. This agreement is then used as consent to "volunteer" for workfare. Since only verbal agreement is required, a JC+ advisor could make it up if agreement wasn't given.

So you've got misrepresentation there. However, the terms of JSA and WRAG have always been that you will make every reasonable effort to find work and carry out plans agreed with your advisor (JSA) or attend work-related activities as recommended by JC+.

~ So, on that point, the dispute would be about whether workfare constitutes reasonable preparation for a job. (I suppose that's why they keep banging on about young people and long-term unemployed.)

The financial penalties for non-compliance are coercion. But a normal employer would sack you for non-compliance.

~ So the question here is: Does the DWP employ benefit claimants? This is really important, for other reasons below as well as this one.

The worker being given false information about the law and their employment rights

Employment rights do not, as far as can be told, apply to workfarers. This is apparently because they have no employer.

But if the DWP is their employer, it should be up to the DWP to ensure their rights are fulfilled. They give a sheet of requirements to the provider companies, who give a sheet of requirements to the labour user (supposedly) but those requirements are minimal at best. Moreover, workfarers who complain about their rights being denied are threatened with a non-compliance report.

~ I don't know which laws that scenario abuses, but am sure it's illegal. IF the DWP is the employer, it's in serious dereliction.

Not being provided with safety equipment and clothing, and/or being charged for the provision of such equipment

This is in the terms of engagement (DWP & provider), I've seen it. However, we know it's not being carried out in practice by Jobcentres, providers or users.

~ If the DWP has mandated the provision of equipment, who's at fault when it isn't provided? Whose responsibility is it?

not paying the full tax or national insurance contributions for the worker

The DWP credits claimants for NI. It also supplies tax statements.

~ That seems to prove that the DWP IS THE EMPLOYER.

.... I was going to go through your whole post but I'm knackered!

Point seems to be: As the DWP is now employing people rather than managing welfare, at what point did they agree this with their new employees?

~ Is the DWP not contravening several rather important points of employment law, contract law, trafficking law and habeus corpus?

If the DWP is NOT the employer, how does it justify paying public money for the subsistence and NI credits of workers? Does the public purse get the benefit of workfare? Why is the DWP paying the users to get free labour?

~ Who's getting the financial benefit? And is it legal to profit by such means?

... I was wondering [a] Why no class actions have yet been launched, and [b] How the government proposes to neutralise the arguments, as it must have anticipated them.

(I'm making myself ill with crossness now Shock)

MrsDeeBee · 24/02/2012 22:20

Gets worse day by day.

I am so Sad really that these people actually think they are doing everyone a favour.

garlicbutter · 24/02/2012 22:21

Fuck me, carer. Shock at your link.

The Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) has previously stated that all mandatory schemes must be for "community benefit". However, under government rules, this can be defined as increasing the profit of organisations where the unemployed are sent to work without pay.

"community benefit" can be defined as increasing the profit of organisations where the unemployed are sent to work without pay Confused Shock Confused Angry

rabbitstew · 24/02/2012 22:27

They mean the community of wealthy chief executives and institutional shareholders, of course, when they refer to community benefit.

rabbitstew · 24/02/2012 22:30

This is all too depressing... I look at my children and I feel sad for them. There won't be anything nice left for them when they grow up.

woollyideas · 24/02/2012 22:34

Newsnight now!

woollyideas · 24/02/2012 22:36

Apparently people objecting to scheme are a 'front for the Socialist Worker's Party'!

MrsDeeBee · 24/02/2012 22:40

rabbit

Do you know what ? DH and I were just chatting, and it may come across all 'twee' and 'fairy-tale' but we ALL have the most important 'jobs' we will ever have.

We are parents.

When I look around at the people who run this country, and everything else that is going on, I wonder what all the effort is for ? To help them to be well-educated, to be polite, considerate, upstanding members of their community. To aspire to do and be the very best that they can, in the path they choose in life.

Sometimes I wonder why ?

I actually feel sometimes like apologising to mine for bringing them into this world.

carernotasaint · 24/02/2012 22:41

rabbit that is why we have to fight this.I have no children myself but i have a niece (who is seventeen next month) and i have friends with children and i care about them and i care about the unborn millions.
If those bastards carry on with this the only choice left for most will be workfare. I was extremely bloody proud of the people who demonstrated last weekend. And i am proud of the posters on here who are standing up against this.
Since when has it been extremist to want to be paid for the work you do FFS.

carernotasaint · 24/02/2012 22:45

Will have to catch Newsnight tomorrow. DH is watching a concert on BBC 4

mrspnut · 24/02/2012 22:45

I can't believe that there have been so few tweets about this situation.

mrspnut · 24/02/2012 22:46

They can't be counting everything, and the government bod is a knobber.

carernotasaint · 24/02/2012 22:48

ALERT ALERT Adam from Boycott Workfare will be on Radio 5 LIVE at 11.05 on the Stephen Nolan show. I fucking hope this bloody concert finishes at 11.00

edam · 24/02/2012 22:52

garlic - I think you are crediting the government with far too much intelligence when you say it must have anticipated those arguments. Given the ridiculous policies and execution of policy in, say, the health bill or the legal aid bill, I wouldn't be surprised if ministers are making it up as they go along, without worrying about the details. Look at any of this government's proposed legislation and it's a dog's breakfast - if an undergraduate wrote anything half as bad they'd be lucky to scrape a third.

Honestly, when the health bill was originally drafted, you only had to look at it to spot dozens of errors, ambiguities and real problems. The DH response, every time, was 'ooh, that's detail, we'll sort that out later'. Tiny details such as, ooh, leaving out the bit that has been in every health bill since 1948 about the Secretary of State having a legal duty to provide a comprehensive national health service.

(They've announced they are putting that bit in half a dozen times but am not convinced they've actually done it yet.)

Similarly with legal aid - women's organisations sat down with ministers and pointed out abolishing legal aid would be disastrous for victims of domestic violence, and spelt out exactly where the substance and detail was wrong. Ministers just waved it aside as mere technicalities - because drafting legislation that says you can't get legal aid until after you've got a court order makes sense in what way, exactly?

This lot are just hard of thinking when it comes to leglisation. Or completely careless. Or deliberately evil. Take your pick.

minimathsmouse · 24/02/2012 23:02

Brilliant! even the participating exploiting profiteers are dumping Grayling and chums in it!

""Poundland have been taking part in two schemes, the work programme and the work experience scheme," it said in a statement. "Poundland has suspended its participation in the work programme, because of concerns about the compulsory nature of the programme but they are continuing with the work experience, which is voluntary."

No wonder Mr Grayling keeps derailing all arguments by trotting out "work experience for young people" he is being purposefully obtuse and misleading. Arrrr

Thanks Carernotasaint, brilliant write up. I have been looking into Avanta, the CEO Any Bowie used to work for A4e and when I contacted one of the companies that are on the list we have of participating employers, it turns out Avanta are just adding some companies without their permission!

carernotasaint · 24/02/2012 23:03

I fucking KNEW id heard the name Avanta before.

garlicbutter · 24/02/2012 23:03

I just thought inexperienced & incompetent until the bills started to surface in detail. The government has some of the best minds available to it. As you've said, edam, they receive expert advice and dismiss it.

So I am forced to go with your third option. Evil.

minimathsmouse · 24/02/2012 23:03

"Andy Bowie" so tired, too much drain my brain

TapselteerieO · 24/02/2012 23:10

I agree, they are evil.

But I do feel every little helps with this protest, they call us socialist workers, which is almost funny.

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