Do we no longer live in a democracy?

[LilyBolero]

The United Kingdom purports to be a democracy. And yet, the people of this country have no say in what happens in this country.

Look at the NHS reforms. Nobody voted for them. Cameron and Lansley KNEW that if they announced what they were planning before the election, they would be roundly beaten. And so they kept it secret. Now, when polls say that 73% of voters oppose the use of private companies in the NHS, and 62% of voters do not trust the Tories on the NHS, when they are opposed by many health organisations (Royal College of GPs, Royal College of Nurses, Royal College of Midwives, Royal College of physiotherapists, and the list goes on and on) - their solution is to shut the door on them, and to exclude them from any further discussions.

How is this democracy? Most people DON'T WANT the reforms. Most medical people DON'T WANT the reforms. Even half the government DON'T WANT the reforms. And yet, because Cameron and Lansley want them, this is what is going to happen. Cameron said 'No more top-down reorganisation of the NHS'.

Then we have Michael Gove imposing his 'ban on termtime holidays'. Is it not up to parents to decide how to bring up their children? Has he forgotten that it is not 'his' country, to rule as he wishes, but all of our country.

Even on the economy, we have no democratic say. At the last election, there were 2 distinct approaches. The Labour way, and the LibDem way was to halve the deficit over 4-5 years. The Conservative way was to cut savagely and to eliminate the deficit in 5 years. Although elections are rarely fought on one issue, I think in the extraordinary situation of 2010, it would be fair to say that the economy was the over-riding issue, and if ever an election was mono-issue, it was that one.

The first solution, of shallower cuts received about 15.4 million votes. The second solution of savage cuts received 10.7 million votes.

So we get the second option.

The Lib Dems campaigned on a ticket of 'pledging to oppose ANY rise in tution fees'. In government, they are trebling the tuition fees.

David Cameron before the election said he 'liked child benefit being a universal benefit'. He said 'I LIKE child benefit, I WOULDN'T CHANGE child benefit'.

Now he is abolishing child benefit for some in an unfair and incompetent slash at families.

They are liars, and buy votes through lies, and then do whatever the hell they want. We should be able to force an election and actually hold politicians to account. We don't live in a democracy, we live in a fascist dictatorship.

The argument is not that we don't have democracy because the Tory scum are in power.

The argument is that the political system is broken, regardless of who is in power. When parties are elected and immediately do the exact opposite of their manifesto pledges, then democracy is broken.

When the two parties refuse to talk about important issues because they fear they will be unpopular and not get elected, then democracy is broken.

When a party takes the country to war which is both immoral and illegal, against legal advice, and against the overwhelming wishes of the majority of the public, then democracy is broken.

When the two dominant parties - the only two who have a chance to get elected based on our unproportional electoral system - are basically both neo-liberal parties, and the difference between them is which of them is the more evil, then democracy is broken.

When private interest groups - especially big business and banks - have the power to pretty much shape and overturn party policy, then democracy is broken.

People have to stop being so party political. Yes, I think the Tories are utterly vile, sociopathic and evil. And yet I know that New Labour, if elected, will still continue the broken and harmful neo-liberal policies which this country has suffered for the past 30 years which has created wealth inequality not seen since the 1930s, brought the country to an illegal war, and caused the worst financial crisis for almost a century.

We can't go on like this. Fundamental change is required.

You could argue Lily - that one man does decide the govt, if there is one vote more for the party that has the majority.

I think that Clegg did this in concert with his party; it was courageous of Cameron to make the offer, and of Clegg to accept it.

Coalitions are messy by definition; in defence terms, in political terms, there will always be one stronger partner, be it by having a larger military, or a larger share of the vote. You only have to look at some of the govts in Europe to see that coalitions are fragile things - but in some cases they work when differences are put aside to solve massive problems.

'We can't go on like this. Fundamental change is required'

We don't need no socialist revolution, hey leave the system alone.

You are free to set up your own party and see if people vote for your policies and agree with you. It is no good calling millions of good Tory citizens "scum" or good Tory MPs "scum" or the world's most widely read online newspaper "scum". Engage with the people, try to convince them that you have good ideas, but don't patronise them because they happen to disagree with you. Only a progressive would do that.

Democracy isn't broken because we have a Tory Government.

Democracy is broken because we have policies being introduced that were intentionally lied about at the election (definitely the NHS, probably the VAT and probably the Child Benefit - Cameron himself said he should have come clean about the child benefit)

Democracy is broken because the party that came third is in Government, and got to decide the leader

Democracy is broken because the government is not reflecting the will of the people

We do need a socialist revolution, actually. The system is broken. You'd have to be blind or stupid not to see that.

Starting my own party is not the way to change the political system, and it would never have the support of the corporate media anyway.

People every day are trying to make bold changes to the system - these are the people on the streets, the people occupying roads, bridges, buildings, banks and stores. The people boycotting. The people striking. The people who refuse to accept that this insane system is the only thing possible.

So there are already millions of us who want big changes to the system. This is a ongoing struggle.

Perhaps when things get so bad, as they have in Greece, where they've basically suspended democracy, the majority will be out in the streets, taking back society from the ruling class and shaping it in the interests of the public.

Watch out for Greece, btw. You may see interesting developments there.

You know Ttosca, you make it really hard to engage in debate when you refer to a large proportion of the UK population as 'vile, sociopathic and evil' and let's not forget your favourite phrase of 'Tory scum'.

If you want to talk about 'vile, sociopathic and evil', then perhaps you'd like to direct your ire towards the faceless and unelected apparatchiks at the EU and what they are doing; van Rompuy, Barrosso, Rehn et al.

But all governemnts break promises, that is as old as the sun and the Labour government did it too, just as many people knew they would do. The majority of teh people don't believe a lot of what they say and never have done. That is why politicians are regarded somewhere near estate agents and always have been. We all know they have to say things they don't believe in to toe the party line. It's not new.

'Democracy is broken because the party that came third is in Government, and got to decide the leader'

For once, the votes of LibDem voters have counted and some of their policies are being implemented. They have joined with the Tory voters and together they are a greater number than those who voted for New Labour, so the system has delivered a voice to the majority and reflects the will of the majority of the people.

"For once, the votes of LibDem voters have counted and some of their policies are being implemented. They have joined with the Tory voters and together they are a greater number than those who voted for New Labour, so the system has delivered a voice to the majority and reflects the will of the majority of the people."

Sorry, but that is just rubbish. Their policies should not be being implemented, because the majority of people did not vote for them.

I didn't notice 'ConDem Coalition' on the ballot paper.

'People every day are trying to make bold changes to the system - these are the people on the streets, the people occupying roads, bridges, buildings, banks and stores. The people boycotting. The people striking. The people who refuse to accept that this insane system is the only thing possible.'

But they are not the majority, and in a democracy the will of the majority is paramount. Socialist Worker Party activists do protest, but they are not the majority.

You know Ttosca, you make it really hard to engage in debate when you refer to a large proportion of the UK population as 'vile, sociopathic and evil' and let's not forget your favourite phrase of 'Tory scum'.

Why is it hard to engage in debate? Anyone who treats the poor and disabled the way this government has done deserves to be called all of that and more.

If you want to talk about 'vile, sociopathic and evil', then perhaps you'd like to direct your ire towards the faceless and unelected apparatchiks at the EU and what they are doing; van Rompuy, Barrosso, Rehn et al.

Who says I don't think what they're doing is evil? Did I not just mention what the Troika are doing in Greece in the post immediately proceeding?

The Greeks are now being forced to basically turn Greece in to a labour camp for the EU for the next decade or so. The IMF will have a permanent presence in Greece, telling the ruling government what it can and cannot do. Democracy has been suspended. Radio stations are being fined and shut down for speaking out against these policies.

And what is happening in Greece will happen elsewhere. If Greece defaults, which most likely it will, it will happen even quicker, and it will happen all over europe.

"But they are not the majority, and in a democracy the will of the majority is paramount. Socialist Worker Party activists do protest, but they are not the majority."

The will of the majority was to not have a LibDem government. The will of the majority IS to NOT PROCEED WITH THE NHS REFORMS - that we were lied to about (and that is not breaking a promise, it is telling a lie).

'Sorry, but that is just rubbish. Their policies should not be being implemented, because the majority of people did not vote for them.'

Do you not believe in alliances, strength through unity? The people who voted for Blair were not a majority of the voting public. More people did not vote for Balir than did vote for him.

For once, the votes of LibDem voters have counted and some of their policies are being implemented. They have joined with the Tory voters and together they are a greater number than those who voted for New Labour, so the system has delivered a voice to the majority and reflects the will of the majority of the people.

You haven't quite got it, have you, Claig.

It does not follow that, because the majority of voters voted for A and B, on a platform of X and Y, that anything a coalition of [AB] does when in power is therefore 'the will of the people'.

The Tories actually made promises that they would now enact any top-down restructuring of the NHS. Yet, that is exactly what they are now doing. The public - the vast majority - do not support the NHS bill. They promised that they wouldn't cut funding to the NHS (this was AFTER the financial crisis hit, btw), yet spending for the NHS has fallen in real terms since they came to power.

You may be satisfied with electing parties which, when elected, do as they please, with or without a mandate, but I don't. I don't call this 'democracy'.

I just have a problem with the idea of coalitions, I don't think the party who came last out of the main parties should consider that a mandate to implement their policies.

And I (as I may have said before on this thread ) have a real problem with buying votes with lies, that you know are lies, and within a few weeks will be proven to be lies.

But they are not the majority, and in a democracy the will of the majority is paramount. Socialist Worker Party activists do protest, but they are not the majority.

You seriously underestimate the extent of discontent with the political system. And furthermore, for everyone 1 person on the street, there are 10 or 100 who agree but who will not protest.

The UK is not 'big' on protest. In France, there is a culture of people protesting and standing up for their rights. That may be one reason why the quality of life there is so much higher than the UK.

Governments have always made alliances in parliament to get bills through, like when they did deals with the Unionists or other smaller parties. It is a quid pro quo and has always gone on. Government is about compromise and making deals and striking bargains to get legislation through. It's the way things work. It's not a dictatorship, they have to come to agreement and strike bargains.

'That may be one reason why the quality of life there is so much higher than the UK.'

and maybe because they have a right wing government voted in by the people.

'And I (as I may have said before on this thread ) have a real problem with buying votes with lies, that you know are lies, and within a few weeks will be proven to be lies.'

You're not alone there. Why do you think so many people abandoned Labour?

Why do YOU think David Cameron couldn't get a majority, even after the worst financial crisis in modern times?

I think even the mistrustful public though are staggered at the scale of his deception on the NHS.

'I don't think the party who came last out of the main parties should consider that a mandate to implement their policies.'

But the Tories have not implemented many LibDem policies, because they are the majority in the Coalition. They only agree to some of them and make a compromise over them.

'Why do YOU think David Cameron couldn't get a majority, even after the worst financial crisis in modern times?'

Because he didn't try. He didn't score any open goals. He let Gordon off the hook about Mrs Duffy and nearly everything else Labour had done over their 13 years. I think they wanted a Coalition, not a Tory government on its own, because that would draw all the "Tory scum" crowd to oppose the reforms they knew were necessary. I think they wanted strength through unity.

'You may be satisfied with electing parties which, when elected, do as they please, with or without a mandate, but I don't. I don't call this 'democracy'.'

I think that is the real world, not the world of socialist theory. The socialists do exactly the same. Look at the Iraq war.

King Canute was probably an early socialist, railing against the world and ordering nature to change to stop the tide. It is better to understand nature, people, politics and the world, so that you can effect change by swimming with the tide instead of demanding "fundamental change" and throwing your toys out of the pram when teh majority disagree with you, because that is a sure route to failure.

'That may be one reason why the quality of life there is so much higher than the UK.'

and maybe because they have a right wing government voted in by the people.

Hahahaha! Your political ignorance is showing again, Claig. I can assure you that, on the whole, the political climate in France is a lot more socialist and public oriented than in the UK.

One just needs to compare the number of working hours, workers rights, union rights, and public expenditure of the UK compared with France, and in fact, many other european countries, to see that the UK political and economic model is more closely aligned with the US than europe. That is to say, it is more right wing, more economically 'free-market'.

I think that is the real world, not the world of socialist theory. The socialists do exactly the same. Look at the Iraq war.

What about the Iraq war? Socialists weren't in power during the Iraq war. Socialists opposed the Iraq war.

Why don't you get some political education and stop reading the Daily Mail?