tell me I've dreamt this - DC proposing to give tax breaks to the middle classes (who can already afford this) to help them pay for their cleaners/nannies/gardeners????

[ssd]

surely not?

what planet is he on??

"Childcare already has tax breaks"

where?

If you are going to say childcare vouchers, they are

1. being phased out and
2. not available to self employed people

"athing you say it would make us just like other countries in europe "

I would never say something so idiotic.

I said that far from being laughable and ridiculous and utterly unworkable, that the proposal had been tried in other countries, and that it might be instructive to learn from them rather than sneer at things on the basis of who said them.

Now interesting people familiar with this kind of tax deduction are here talking about how it works, so I'm listening.

'They would make more money if they did this for builders / decorators / electricians and the like.'

The fact that they are not doing this probably indicates that it is not about the black economy, but about increasing employment by stimulating demand.

"So on the basis of your hunch that people either have cleaners or do not, you think that a policy that has been implemented in several European social democracies is "not well thought out"?"

The policy that is in place in several European social democracies is ^not what is being suggested".

Pointing out that bolting these two pieces onto our regime does not make any sense, is not the same as dismissing the tax regimes of other countries. Unless you think that bolting these two pieces onto out regime makes it the same as these other countries.

Sardine, the cheques can also be used for decorators, odd-job-men etc, although certain trades are excluded as they require the tradesman to be registered with a professional body, which requires them to have sole trader or limited company status. There is also a ceiling which the worker must not exceed under the scheme I think.

I've used builders under these scheme, who were just starting out, then set up a proper business once their activity was up and running.

It also includes childcare, but only for children over 6. Under 6s are covered under a different (but similar) scheme as the costs are subsidised by the state.

claig in that case why not do it for work to people's houses. At the moment people pay normal VAT on work to their homes while new builds and work to listed buildings attracts a lower rate.

Making this change on people involved in the building, renovation and allied trades would stimulate a lot more spending than a few people hiring min wage cleaners, and pull a lot more cash out of the shadow economy.

DC has said this in a misguided attempt to appeal to female voters, as the conservatives are aware they are losing support in this area.

I am going to off and look for some links but basically, here, service cheques can be used for:

cleaning, ironing, shopping, transport for elderly or disabled people, gardening, minor domestic jobs, sewing (?)

The cheques cost 7.50, you can claim back 30% tax. The govt pays the agencies 21 euros for each cheque. The employee then gets sickness and holiday pay, maternity provision and NI and pension contributions. It also covers insurance for the employee should they injure themselves on your premises (this is something we normally would have to pay for).

If you employ someone outside the system and get caught you would be fined.

x-posts vitaminC yes that sounds really good.

That sounds good as well porto (and the childcare provisions mentioned earlier).

I don't think teh UK could stomach a tax hike of that magnitude though!

Interestingly, if you are self employed and restarting work after having a baby, you get a "maternity allowance" of 105 service cheques! So a free cleaner for a year!

That is a brilliant idea!

Can you imagine how a policy like that would go down over here?

Quicker than a lead balloon

There is an old Chinese proverb that Cameron probably knows well

"a journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step"

this is a step in the right direction to encourage enterprise and employment. After the leap backwards over the last 13 years, this is at least a step forwards.

I know how much you like the term "progressive" claig. And how left-leaning people should applaud anything "progressive".

Moving from an individual based tax system to a family based tax system is not progressive. And will be a humungous change. And will be terribly complicated.

Anyway I'm going to sign off now.
Once again feeling about the arrangements some of our european friends have!

Does anybody know about how it works in Sweden?

That's the model Cameron was praising, how does it work there?

Why would you need to move to a family-based tax system to implement this policy?

Because his comment was that he would provide tax relief for hiring cleaners and gardeners for families.

If he was going to provide it for everyone... Well I can't really see that, can you? The blurb said it was aimed at families and would especially appeal to women with younger children.

(Cos women do all the cleaning and gardening, obv)

Sweden has a v high tax rate
V long parental leave both parents
All terribly flexible
Lots of cheap childcare
Don't know how they tax
It's just a different kettle of gravdlax fish.

Porto -

That sounds like a good system. I wonder why it needs to be linked to the tax system at all?

I think part of the reason the tax idea might not fly in the uk is it would be seen as an Upstairs-Downstairs thing - giving most benefit to high rate tax payers, less to regular tax payers and least to non-tax payers.

What about a system where each individual is allowed to purchase up to a standard number of cheques for £5, which can be used to pay for £10 worth of service? Everyone gets the same number, people on low incomes might be able to buy them for £2, say. People with high needs could be given more cheques either one-off e.g. When a baby is born, or on a regular basis e.g. for SN.

If you dont need any help, want to be a SAHP etc.. without extra help you could sell your cheques on an exchange and keep the money yourself.

Would create jobs, put more power in individual's hands, reduce bureaucracy?

I wonder what a system like that would cost to administer?

I think making it possible to redeem the cheques for cash would possibly undermine the purpose of them. I guess people could buy and sell them privately - is that allowed in Belgium?

It would be pretty easy not to offer relief at the higher tax rate if that was felt to be unfair, that already happens for some things.

Ultimately though the only person who would be able to redeem them for cash at full face value would bea cleaner, CM, home help or whatever who had registered with the scheme and had been paid to do some work for somebody.

Don't know how much it would cost but perhaps less than all the different departments saying we can help you with this but bit with that e,g. Medical vs practical care, support for families under pressure, support for children,SN,HVs, back to work support, schemes for this and that etc.... Have a simpler assessment system and let people choose what kind of help they need when, through a combination if personal and stare resources.... While at the same time better than a tax break for those with no particular social need because it would be spent locally.

Dont know if it would work, just wondering ...

Is it not startlingly obvious that the society that Cameron would like to return to, nay aches to return to, is that of Downton Abbey? He would like a situation we had up until the early years of the 20th C where the only or certainly main route out of unemployment and penury for working class women was domestic service.

Now call me odd, or even feminist, but this isn't really something I welcome.

Unlees you're v weird - or a Tory - a return to literally Victorian values of no healthcare unless you can afford it, 'deserving' and 'undeserving' poor clearly demarcated and the undeserving sent to the modern equivalent of the workhouse ie workfare, along with all female proles put down for a life of domestic servitude - but with the extra giggle thrown in that their taxes are subsidizing their masters' servants' bill by paying for a tax credit, does not really appeal.

I have nothing against using the tax system to stimulate employment, just questioning whether domestic service is really the kind of employment we wish or need to be subsidizing. Will it really make us world class competitors on an international stage again? Or just turn us into a real-life Dickensian freakshow?

Should add I loove the sound of the French and belgian versions...no chance of anything that sensible happening here....

"questioning whether domestic service is really the kind of employment we wish or need to be subsidizing"

You might think a job that is 'domestic' is demeaning but other people are not quite so snooty. A job's a job. What does it matter whether it's working for council contractor collecting bins or working for Mr Smith mowing his lawn?