tell me I've dreamt this - DC proposing to give tax breaks to the middle classes (who can already afford this) to help them pay for their cleaners/nannies/gardeners????

[ssd]

surely not?

what planet is he on??

I want the childcare.

Cleaners and gardeners are not on my radar. As they are not for (I would guess) most people in the UK.

Swedish tax is based on families?

Really?

Are you sure?

What, in particular, is different about the UK tax system that makes this a "bolt on" when it is perfectly integrated in superior, sophisticated continental tax systems?

I'm no tax expert. The only one on this thread thinks this is a workable and good idea.

I guess you know better?

claig I think they have the same problem with it as they do with this child benefit idea, in that UK tax is individual and these things look at families.

You would need to change the way the whole tax system works.

athing the fact that we have an individual tax system and this requires a family tax system?

I have no idea how the swedish system is run.

I imagine it is quite different from ours.

For a start I know they pay a lot more tax and have affordable childcare.

:o

YOU want childcare, but not a cleaner?

So tax policy should be formulated based on what is best for YOU?

Um, OK.

Sorry, I thought this was about policy, not personal wishlists.

I would love tax-deductible childcare, far more than a cleaner or a gardener, but I didn't really think the way to assess public policy was to see whether it benefitted me personally and bellyache about it if it didn't.

Wow, well I guess we're done then.

eg france

"Well, it works here in France - any domestic help (nanny, cleaner, gardener) has to be declared as a salaried employee (i.e. no cash in hand jobs, like in the UK), which means that as the employer you pay NI contributions etc, but get a 50% tax deduction in return."

1. childcare included
2. all treated as employees (huge change to our system)

You can't say that bolting these 2 things onto our completely different system will make us the same as eg France. It won't. It's apples and oranges.

What planet are you on that you don't think affordable childcare is more of an issue by a factor of about a zillion to people in the UK across the wage brackets, than tax deductible cleaners?

Aha

You are David Cameron, and I claim my £5

' Look, of all the problem David Cameron has got, the most acute is that he looks, sounds and seems like a toff'

Should this type of yah boo politicking prevent Cameron from doing good things.

Apparently there is some opposition to the policy in Sweden
'Indeed in Sweden, by all accounts ? and I yield to the editor of the Spectator on this one ? the measure has its critics. They say it benefits the high earners more than the lower paid on the employers' side and it benefits migrant workers more than locals when it comes to the employees. And the same would be true in spades here ? if you know an English cleaning lady, you probably don't live in London'

Note that teh opposition is because it help the high-earners and the migrant lowest earners who do enterprising jobs that many locals won't do. Who cares if the workers are mainly migrant workers? They are earning money, providing good services and tehy will spend that money back in the economy.

And as for helping the higher earners, of course you need to help the higher earners if you want to boost employment, because the higher earners have the money (just like profitable businesses do). Someone who is skint or a business that makes no profit can't employ anyone.

Don't know about Sweden, but here in France you are taxed as a family.

There is no PAYE, you declare your income once a year, then receive a bill a few months later. After the first year, you can pay installments based on the previous year's amount, so it's not just one lump sum to fork out.

Basically, all the family's income is listed (both spouses/civil partners plus any income kids may have from part-time work, trust funds etc.) and then the total is divided by the number of points the family is entitled to. Each adult is 1 point, the first two kids each count for 0.5 and any further kids a whole 1 point. There are additional points for disabled children, or war-wounded adults.

The amount "per share" is then taxed, according to a sliding scale and then any tax deductions/refunds are added/subtracted on the amount payable.

So, a family, with one person earning 10K and the other 50K, with 2 kids, would have a total income of 60k and 3 points, so the net tax base would be 20K, which would probably be subject to around a 15% tax rate, so roughly ?3000. A tax refund for 50% of childcare costs and domestic employee salaries would then be deductable from this, along with other "tax-rebate" things such as installing ecologically friendly heating systems, loft insulation or double glazing...

I was trying to find some stuff on the Belgian decision to do this (in English) to link to. I will have another search - but I did read that it's intention was to create employment and cut down on the black economy. It started in 2004. A comment dating from 2006 was that it was expecting to create 25000 jobs, but in fact vastly surpassed that at 90000. So taking that as nearly 1% of the Belgian population, and extrapolating you are talking the potential for nearly half a million people working IN the system, paying tax, or at least claiming fewer benefits in many cases.

Obviously a lot of these people WOULD have been working already - but cash in hand.

What are the childcare provisions like in belgium, porto?

Was it just cleaning and gardening that was included, or were there other things? How does it work - are families taxed together or individually?

I just think that this is all a bit apples and oranges.

It's great for employment. Anyone can start a cleaning business, you don't need to go to university to do it. All it requires is hard work and enterprise, things we should be encouraging. The other thing it requires is demand, people who will hire you, and this policy is about increasing demand. It is pure Keynesianism. If Cameron wssn't a toff, the progressives would be all for it, just as they are in Sweden.

Porto, it's a similar situation here in France, although they've been around a bit longer - since the mid-90s I think (certainly existed when I got married in 97).

They changed the system slightly around 5 years ago, to simplify it and there are now also vouchers, which some employers offer their staff (as a tax-free benefit, in addition to pension, private health insurance etc), which can be used in the same way - to pay for childcare, cleaners...).

"What planet are you on that you don't think affordable childcare is more of an issue by a factor of about a zillion to people in the UK across the wage brackets, than tax deductible cleaners?"

Who do you think said that?

I certainly didn't.

Making childcare tax deductible would be enormously costly, as outlined by Quattrocento earlier.

How do you want to pay for it? Or what do you want to cut to pay for it?

I'm all about tax-deductible childcare, but I don't see why I should be against this measure unless it includes childcare.

The argument that "something else would be better" has nothing to say about how good this is.

It's contradictory to say that the proposal as it stands is unworkable, but that you would support it if it was going to be include something else (that YOU want) that would make it massively expensive.

I remain unconvinced that a 20% cut in how much you have to pay would cause the demand for cleaners to go through the roof.

I also don;t understand how it would be implemented without changing our entire taxation system.

I thought you'd gone.

Please can you address the points raised on the thread about implementation, assumptions about number in the shadow economy, numbers coming under the lower tax threshold and so forth.

Thank you

I would ask claig but her answers usually fox me even when I'm not on drugs

Sardine I think you're missing the point.

The 20% cut wouldn't necessarily increase demand straight away, but all those currently paying a cleaner "off the books" would be encouraged to do it legally. And any person starting to employ a cleaner/nanny/etc in the future would hopefully go straight to the legal method, thus reducing the shadow economy even further!

'I remain unconvinced that a 20% cut in how much you have to pay would cause the demand for cleaners to go through the roof.'

Portofino gave teh figures for Belgium. It was thought it would create 25000 jobs, but it in fact created 90000.

Every tax reduction counts and every tax rise harms business, which is why VAT rising by 2.5% to 20% depressed sales. A 20% cut is a big cut for teh people who are employing cleaners. It is quantitaive easing for people, creating employment in the real economy, rather than quantitative easing for the banks and their bonuses.

athing you say it would make us just like other countries in europe
but they include childcare
and you say we can't possibly do that
so it wouldn't make us anything like them

Childcare is tax deductible in Belgium - this includes after school and holiday clubs, children's activities ie dance/Sports lessons and even holidays! School - the Maternelle part starts from 2.5yo and is free. There is a 99% take up rate for this. Communal creches are subsidised - the rates paid depend on your earnings and you pay a lower rate for subsequent children. (Though I guess it is unlikely you would have more than 2 there at the same time - multiple births aside)

Tax is MUCH higher though - the 50% rate starts at about 33k euros. We are taxed as a family. We have PAYE but do an annual tax return where we can claim these things back. Child benefit goes up the more children you have and there are tax allowances for children and non-working spouse. Only about 55% of women work. The optimum tax position is to have 3 children and only one partner working.

Childcare already has tax breaks. It does not have to be included in a wider system of domestic help.

claig porto has not confirmed what types of employment the change in belgium effected, nor what the situation is with tax generally etc

apples and oranges, people.

vitamin C - why do you assume that cleaners (of all trades!) are so terribly criminal? The lower tax threshold is due to be raised to £10,000, how many people working in cleaning jobs for cash earn in excess of that? (I don't know, and I'm sure you don't either, but a significant number are going to be on pretty low salaries).

They would make more money if they did this for builders / decorators / electricians and the like.

But that is about progressives, this is about Conservative policy to encourage employment, stimulating demand in Keynesian fashion.

Porto thank you for the further details