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Politics

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

To think some posters need a "reality check" re. views on benefit changes

704 replies

lesley33 · 25/01/2012 12:02

I have some concerns about some of the proposed changes to benefits and how these may adversely affect people. So this is NOT a thread about that. But I am getting increasingly fed up at some of the frankly ridiculous reasons some posters are giving against the proposed changes. Examples include:

  1. That children 12 and over will be traumatised if both parents work - even if second parent only works 20 hours a week.
  1. That a parent with children 12 and over shouldn't have to commute up to 90 minutes each way to work. Far from ideal I know and if someone is on low wages this might not be affordable. But perfectly doable.
  1. That childcare is impossible to get for teenagers. Ignoring the fact that many parents, myself included use a combination of kids home alone and afterschool activities.

AIBU to think some people need a reality check? Plenty of people with children already work, many with both parents working full time by the time their kids are teenagers. Plenty of people have long commutes, struggle with childcare, etc. Things might not be "ideal", but these are things that many many working parents already do.

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TheRealTillyMinto · 26/01/2012 16:18

wubblybubbly i didnt 'tell anyone what to do' i talked about my own experiences.

you did it to minimise their experiences and that's just plain mean
you are choosing to think that but you are incorrect. where did i say that? i was told i knew nothing.

kelly2000 · 26/01/2012 16:18

rediculus????????

wubblybubbly · 26/01/2012 16:20

It must be a very difficult time MrsDeVere. Well, even more so than usual. x

mathanxiety · 26/01/2012 16:23

'math the generation who set up the welfare state and the NHS never forsaw how bloated they would become.
The former was set up to scoop up those in dire need. And quite rightly so. But it was never planned to be as widespread as is now the case.'

Absolutely the growth and the general air of promise and optimism of the postwar years blinded everyone to the possibility that there could ever be years of slow or no growth. Yes, the welfare state has grown, and much else has changed too. Much of the landscape of Britain would not be recognisable to someone who lived alone in a cave since 1948. Change has been exponential on every level and practically nobody could have foreseen a lot of it. Who could have predicted the fate of British heavy manufacturing, the hobbling of mining, the development of a service economy back in the late 1940s the result of all of those factors has been the end of solid union jobs for the working class, the rise of poorly paid service jobs, the rise of job insecurity, and the rise in need.

To strip away the financial underpinnings of a large bloc of the population just at a time when they are most needed and when the employment outlook is at its most bleak will not turn back the clock to start again and do welfare 'right' this time. The basic fact that there may not be jobs out there for all the hundreds of thousands of people who will need them remains. There will still be people in dire need, and in fact there will be more people in dire need. That much is predictable at a time of slow to no growth and global financial upheaval.

The welfare state was designed with the basic underlying principle that all people are equal, that equality itself is really good for the body politic and that basic human dignity is something worthwhile in a concrete way from an economic and a moral and a political pov. Apathy about politics, apathy about education, and lack of engagement with the idea of a national entity result from inequality, from a perception that the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. Such perceptions do not come from thin air. The appeal of right wing populism is shown here imo, and so also is the apathy generated by perceptions of how society has become fractured, with the redistribution of wealth going in favour of the better off for at least two generations now.

The flip side of the coin is that widespread welfare, income support and the existence of the NHS have made it possible for British employers to pay less than they might otherwise have to for qualified employees, and that has resulted in the upward flow of profits and the rise and rise of the stock exchange. Capital has not in general found its way back into the economy in the form of investment or small business but instead has flowed into investment via the exchanges, often into foreign economies and of course into the pockets of the well off. The individual taxpayer has paid for the NHS and for the other services of the welfare state while British business has benefited from the taking up of slack that income support, housing benefit, etc., has afforded. British business in its blind way tends to ignore that which does not hit it in the pocket, or stop to analyse factors that contribute to the bottom line, but American business is very conscious of the costs that someone must incur in a developed society which holds certain values, however tenuously in the case of the US, and which have a direct impact on profits -- like providing health insurance for employees for instance.

TotemPole · 26/01/2012 16:25

Tilly, I just did another google. 25% with no qualifications, that's double the London average. Lacking skills/qualifications for the local jobs.

I just think that lots of people do and that a long commute by itself is not a good enough reason not to work.

A long commute is generally more expensive. People who are going to be 'made' to look for work aren't going to be the higher earners.

What's become apparent on these threads is there is a lack of affordable/reliable childcare & travel in some areas.

lesley33 · 26/01/2012 16:28

totempole - I have already said that lots of low paid people do long commutes. These are not long distance wise but time wise - because public transport is often a slow way to get somewhere. Of course if someone does not earn enough to pay the travel costs that job is not a reasonable one to take. But in my city the bus travelcard means that it isn't too expensive to travel to work for many people e.g. on 2 buses - it just takes a long time.

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Alouisee · 26/01/2012 16:34

Tower Hamlets is one stop on the underground or overground from the City of London. A few more stops to the West End. A few stops East to Stratford & the Olympic site. Why the unemployment there is so high defeats me.

I live in Essex, it's complete commuter land - the trains are standing room only by 6.30 am, most people round here would kill for a 15 minute door to door journey but most of us couldn't afford a shoe box in London.

So is there something fundamentally wrong with the unemployed of Tower Hamlets?

mathanxiety · 26/01/2012 16:34

People really should be more worried that Britain is soon to become Little America.

There should also be concern that 'Other Ireland' lies ahead. Ireland hasn't got the sort of cradle to grave welfare that Britain has and has instead been willing to countenance massive emigration of large numbers of people aged 18 and up, often well educated at the taxpayer's expense.

Yes 'the world and his wife' would love to take a shot at the welfare state. The dynamics of what is happening were well described in the German context in the Heitmeyer article I linked above. He calls it the 'crude middle-class outlook' and he is right.

And yes, Labour needs to wake up and ask how it contributed to the fracturing that has occurred, but the driving force is fear of those who have however little that they will end up like the have nots, and that fear is exploited by the sort of right wing populism that dominates the present debate.

kelly2000 · 26/01/2012 16:34

The welfare state was designed with the basic underlying principle that all people are equal, that equality itself is really good for the body politic

If everyone is equal then why is it wrong that those who do not work get an equal wage to the average worker. That seems to be rather more equality than saying that they should get more than the average worker.

Alouisee · 26/01/2012 16:37

Incidentally a season ticket to London from here is £4140 a year, parking is an additional £5 per day.

tabulahrasa · 26/01/2012 16:37

'But in my city the bus travelcard means that it isn't too expensive to travel to work for many people e.g. on 2 buses - it just takes a long time.'

But assuming that they have children under 12, that's an extra 3 hrs of childcare to pay for as well

callmemrs · 26/01/2012 16:41

Volunteering, being a SAHM while your children are babies, working school hours only later on.... They are all admirable things to do if you want to IF they are affordable. And that's the crux. No one has a god given right to do any of the above . Ditto for living your whole life in the area you were born.

The fact is, many of the above have become the preserve of the very rich, or those who are government- funded. They are not choices available to the millions of people in the middle.

Maybe it would be better for me as an individual cut my working hours, or work term time only, or live in the south east. But I can't afford it. It doesn't occur to me for one moment that other people should be funding me to do it!

lesley33 · 26/01/2012 16:42

That might not be possible for everyone to find or pay for. But I still stand by the statement that a long commute is not by itself a reason to not work.

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lesley33 · 26/01/2012 16:46

math - you say "the driving force is fear of those who have however little that they will end up like the have nots.."

I don't think that is the driving force at all. I think the driving force is people who are working and struggling, knowing that there are others who won't take jobs because they don't want their kids to go into childcare for example. Its not fear of getting poorer - its anger that others are being allowed to opt out of financing themselves sometimes for reasons taht are frankly boggling to the average working parent. Its the sense of injustice - not fear.

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callmemrs · 26/01/2012 16:52

Agree Lesley . It's about equity. Anyone who believes that society should be based on equitable principles finds it sits very uneasily that some people feel they shouldn't have to do things just because they don't want to .

mathanxiety · 26/01/2012 16:53

If you combine the cost of transport for a long commute with the attendant childcare costs (because children are not going to get themselves out of bed at 5.30 am so that you can be on your buses at 6 for your job that starts at 8.30) both before and after work then what you get is someone who really needs to be on welfare, or someone who basically works to be able to afford to work.

Or maybe businesses need to provide on site nursery care -- maybe there should be mobile schools so that parent are not tied to the school run? The employment and education systems are geared towards the model of two-parent families, with one parent primarily responsible for child care. It does not take into account the reality of single mothers' lives.

callmemrs · 26/01/2012 16:56

Of course a welfare state is supremely important to protect the genuinely needy who have no other options available to them.
But we all know that people have different ideas of what is acceptable to them. I know several people who refuse to entertain the idea of a full time job. I know people with school age children who refuse to consider anything other than term time school hours jobs. I know people who won't consider a job unless they make a significant profit after childcare. You can see how that attitude sits very uneasily with those who do work, even though the hours may not be ideal, or the childcare takes up most of the earnings or there is a lengthy commute etc

TheRealTillyMinto · 26/01/2012 17:04

children whose parents dont work also perform less well in school. they consistently underattend children in working households.

so this directly contradicts posters who think it is best for their DCs, in average circumstances.

OhDoAdmitMrsDeVere · 26/01/2012 17:04

MN is full of people who dont think they should have to do something 'just because they dont want to'

Most of them are not on benefits.

So thats ok then.

People on low incomes/carers/LP etc get very used to doing things they dont want to do.

Like paying more for their gas and electricity for example.

lesley33 · 26/01/2012 17:07

There is no probglem wanting to stay at home with your kids for example so they don't go into childcare. Just don't expect someone else to fund that choice! And some posters have made clear that for them it is a choice.

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TheRealTillyMinto · 26/01/2012 17:09

& posters will agree/disagree with their choice & pass judgement.

mathanxiety · 26/01/2012 17:13

If you find the idea that you need only take one factor into account when judging the motives of people (cost of transport alone) to be a reasonable basis for an argument that people should all work then of course you are going to be angry but your anger will not be justified. 'But I still stand by the statement that a long commute is not by itself a reason to not work.' It is never as simple as that. There is never just one factor making people baulk. Give welfare recipients credit for a bit more intelligence than that.

Fear comes into it when the average working person sees that when all the costs of living are added up they are no better off than those undervalued members of society who receive welfare -- when the working individual sees that the welfare recipient's maths may have been right after all. The fear comes from the realisation that their efforts to achieve a higher status may have been in vain, as the status accorded by working effectively means very little. Anger and fear are very closely linked, especially at a time of economic turmoil. There is the fear of losing everything when one lives from hand to mouth despite a paycheque, the fear that springs from the spectacle of banks around the world surviving while businesses close, the fear that children will never have the same chance that their parents did and above all the fear of loss of status in a society where status is king are all factors that generate anger. Anger springs from fear. Anger is encouraged by irresponsible political parties who would prefer that the voters look at a handy scapegoat than at the health of the stock market or ask questions about where all that money is coming from and where it all goes.

lesley33 · 26/01/2012 17:18

math - I honestly don't think you understand why people are at all concerned about some peopel on benefits. It really is not about fear. We get angry or to be more accurate frustrated about lots of things we are not afraid of.

And my point for the thread was that some of the raesons posters give foir not being able to work are frankly ridiculous. Of course individual circumstances are different and the combination of factors might make a job impossible to take. But there have also been posters on this thread for example who have said they would never take a job that meant they had to put their kids into childcare. So for a few people, the reasons are that simple.

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OhDoAdmitMrsDeVere · 26/01/2012 17:19

There was a piece on R4 this week. Some minister or other was talking about all the jobs available in local Job Centres.

When pressed he had to admit that many were short term, agency and with no gauranteeed hours.

Very difficult to take a job that is only going to last for a few weeks and then claim benefits again. The delays involved mean people get into debt or could lose their homes.

Without doubt there are some lazy fuckers out there. I do not believe that the majority of people on benefits are out of work because they are too lazy to do otherwise.

THAT is the issue. This increasing belief, encouraged by the current governement, that those out of work are doing it on purpose just to take the piss out of 'the decent hard working families'

People believe what they want to believe.

If you want to believe that 'other' people are lazier and stupider that you and that you are in work due to the sheer wondefulness of yourself.... there isnt a lot more to be said.

callmemrs · 26/01/2012 17:20

I'm going to choose to rise above the rather snidey comment by mrsdevere. Suffice to say that people of ALL incomes and backgrounds have to deal with all sorts of crapness. Bereavement, illness, difficulties with children, relationships etc etc aren't things that just happen to 'poor people'. To suggest that anyone who is working and not On benefits is swanning around avoiding doing anything they don't choose to do is frankly laughable . For a start, last time I looked, the definition of a job is doing what you are required to do, meeting targets set by someone else. Hardly the definition of 'not doing things you don't want'. Oh and by the way, working parents still have difficult/ stroppy/ ill/ children to look after. Oh and running the home with all the ups and downs that entails. Oh and getting to medical appointments for self/ children, ferrying kids/ elderly relatives around etc etc . They just have to fit all those things aroundaw job.