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Politics

Independence for Scotland

199 replies

CogitoErgoSometimes · 09/01/2012 14:06

Cameron says 'get on with it'. Salmond is biding his time. Presumably both of them think an early referendum would earn a 'no' result. In an era where countries are banding together to weather the storms of international economics I'm not sure I quite understand why a very small nation would want to go it alone. Then again, is it a given that anyone that voted SNP automatically wants independence as they are suggesting? Or is it, same as in England, that they got in because they 'weren't Labour'...?

OP posts:
Solopower · 11/01/2012 18:38

Seriously, how's this going to go? First there's going to be a long legal battle as the SNP and the Coalition fight it out in the courts. Then what? Whether we decide to split or stay, or go for Devo Max - we all get whipped up into a frenzy by the media and a lot of bad feeling is created all round - much more than there is now.

niceguy2 · 11/01/2012 23:02

My fear with allowing a devo max vote is that you don't put to bed once & for all the issue of independence. Just move it along slightly. So the SNP will just bide their time and bring the issue up again.

In principle I've no problems with Scotland having full financial authority over their own taxes as long as they naturally paid for a fair contribution towards UK-wide stuff like defence.

However, I cannot see how you can have full financial independence without full political independence. Look at the Euro. They tried to implement a shared currency without political union. It's been a disaster. And I fear the same will happen here. But any looming disaster won't happen until long after Salmond has left office, years down the line.

Ryoko · 12/01/2012 00:38

I think this is typical Tories, realising they don't have a chance of getting a decent size of the Scottish vote they want them to fuck off IMO as all they care about is hanging on to power at any cost, they have never cared about improving the country.

The SNP from what I've seen (on English TV) are no different to anyone else, blaming everything on someone else (I.e Westminster) in the same way governments all ways blame the previous one for everything, only difference is they are blatantly xenophobic about the english as proved by the student fees.

They are just going to shout at each other for a few years providing a good cover to throw over other news like our abysmal economy and the lack of jobs etc.

In the end I don't think it will come to anything, we are a small country with a big mouth as it is, trying to punch above our weight in the world, if we broke up it would be even harder to have our say on things and the cost to Scotland would be massive, they take on their share of the national debt, will they rent offices in UK embassy buildings or have to buy there own?, have to issue new passports, etc.

OldLadyKnowsNothing · 12/01/2012 01:03

The student fees issue is a European anomaly, and not an example of anti-English xenophobia.

youngermother1 · 12/01/2012 01:13

The Act of Union was about 100 years after James VI/I was the first monarch of both countries and was largely driven on the Scottish side by bankruptcy following the Dorian Gap adventure.
Unfortunately for the SNP, the do not have the power to call a legally binding referendum, only Westminster can do that and this is what the govt is offering.
As for devomax - again only Westminster can devolve powers. You might argue about the power of the people, but why can I not declare 'devomax' for my house and ignore rules I do not like. The govt of the whole country (inc Scotland) decides who can vote on what, not just a small section.
Additionally, if Scotland attains independence, what will its currency be - look at the Euro crisis - if it wants to use Sterling, it will have to agree restraints on borrowing and spending set by the UK - if it wants to use the Euro, it could end up as Greece or Ireland -maybe its own currency?
The SNP spends more per head than it 'earns' in revenues and runs a persistent deficit, it only gets away with it as it gets given money by England -this would not happen under independence.
You might have gathered, I am against this

OldLadyKnowsNothing · 12/01/2012 01:16

On the subject of passports, (I don't have one) are they not United Kingdom passports? Because there was the Union of the Crowns, when James VI, King of Scots, inherited the English Crown from Queen Elizabeth and became King James I of England as well. This created the United Kingdom, in 1603.

What we're looking at here is the dissolution of the Acts and Treaty of Union in 1706/1707, which created the concept of "Great Britain". So our ancestors managed fine for over 100 years as a United Kingdom, while Scots were still independent.

AFAIK, the blurb in a Uk passport chunters on about Her Britannic Majesty requires and requests free passage etc, so it seems to me that as there are no proposals that an independent Scotland would also be a republic, everyone in the UK (which would still include Scotland) would be as entitled to a UK passport as they are right now.

OldLadyKnowsNothing · 12/01/2012 01:18

X post, younger mother. I disagree that the Union of Parliaments was driven by Scots, but agree that the Darien Scheme, or rather, the failure of same, was a major factor.

OldLadyKnowsNothing · 12/01/2012 01:22

Sorry, just realised I misconstrued your comment. Yes, i agree with that bit!

AitchTwoOhOneTwo · 12/01/2012 01:57

what bad news is DC burying right now with all this talk of devolution, i wonder? this really shouldn't have come up for at least another year... i think he's up to something and this is a big distraction.

Solopower · 12/01/2012 06:44

I don't think we'd go for full independence, and I share people's concerns over Devo Max. But if we did, we'd end up a small country with a big army and a lot of nuclear reactors. (England doesn't have anywhere near as many, I believe - or am I wrong?) So, armed to the hilt but with no-one to fight?

Meanwhile, England (+Wales and NI) would be left with a hugely undermined military and nuclear capacity. Do you think, in a million years, that the government would just let us go without a fight?

JuicyFruits · 12/01/2012 06:55

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Solopower · 12/01/2012 07:08

BTW have you noticed how the BBC are portraying Salmond as a wily politician, biding his time, tricks up his sleeve, etc? Back to the stereotypes of yore when kilted clansmen rustled sheep and hid out in the highlands ...

AitchTwoOhOneTwo · 12/01/2012 08:49

here's a transcription of an interview with academic andrew hughes hallett on radio scotland. i was AMAZED this didn't get picked up as a massive newsline at the time, but it just goes to show that the powers-that-be really want the status quo. he says scotland does not run at a deficit. be interested to see what juicyfruit and the other 'scotland can't wipe its arse without england-types' have to say.

"Newsweek Scotland, Saturday 23rd October 2010
Presented by Derek Bateman. Some extracts

Interview with Andrew Hughes Hallett, Professor of Economics at the University of St. Andrews and George Mason University (Virginia).

Derek Bateman (DB): ?...that brings us nicely to Mr. Swinney who says all these cuts are the cost of the union and we can no longer afford our membership of club Britania. The implication is that our natural resources are being bled to swell around the coffers of the Treasury and the firm bite of austerity can be avoided via independence. Is there an election looming? Well we thought we would test his treaties, not with politicians but with one of our foremost academics, Sir Andrew Hughes Hallett, who is a professor of economics at both the University of St. Andrews and George Mason University in Virginia. He?s a proponent of fiscal automony for Scotland, he went into our Washington Studio.?

Andrew Hughes Hallett (AHH): ?It?s really not an issue of independence as such, as it?s the ability to use and spend your tax powers yourself. Which would make the difference, whether that?s in the context of independence or not is neither here nor there.?
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DB: ?But would you not need to be an independent state in order to get those powers??

AHH: ?If you want to get into the nitty-gritty... the usual perception is that Scotland spends something like 20% more on public services per head than the UK average, now there is nothing wrong with that if you can raise the money. Those numbers are very misleading because the spending in that part is what is spent on behalf of Scotland but not necessarily in Scotland. The estimates of Scotland?s share, that?s contributions to defence is £2.8billion whereas roughly £2.0billion are actually paid out in Scotland. So THERE IS AN IMPLICIT SUBSIDY GOING SOUTH in that sense and you can think of plenty more examples, I don?t want to get into North Sea Oil ? which is an obvious one. But things to do with the crown agents who take fees for electricity generation and give it to the treasury, there use to be a case of landing fees. The foreign exchange earnings are, the tax revenues are all accredited to the London Government and so on. And so when you get down to it, on the current account for the last five years at least, maybe longer, Scotland?s had a CURRENT ACCOUNT SURPLUS ? which is currently, according to the National Accounts of Scotland is £1.3 BILLION.?
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DB: ?Can you actually say that Scotland would definitely be better off or is there a lot of suspicion there??

AHH: ?No, you can DEFINATELY SAY THAT WE WOULD BE BETTER OFF in terms of revenue. It would depend on what they do with the revenue when they get it but that?s another issue of course.?
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DB: ?Economically, not politically, does John Swinney have a case to make when he says that ?Scotland can?t afford the union???

AHH: ?Well, I would?ve thought he has a case. I mean you would probably think the same if it was your private income because at the moment on the current account there is a subsidy going to London.?
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DB: ?We hear from critics , well obviously unionists, most of them in London about how that it goes the other way, Scotland is subsidised. If that was the case then, why would the treasury want to hang on to an area of the country that was being subsidised??

AHH: ?...that?s not what the numbers show, that just the perception. If you actually look at the numbers, I quoted them for defence earlier , the distinction is what is said to be spent on Scotland?s behalf but is not actually spent in Scotland.?
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DB: ?Is another way of putting this is that the treasury knows when it is on to a good thing??

AHH: ?Well indeed, yes. I would?ve thought that if was in the Treasury I wouldn't want to be surrendering this subsidy. It?s not huge from a UK?s perspective .... but I wouldn?t want to be surrendering it because it is helping [the Treasury].?
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DB: "Is there a big spanner in the works though. As the previous secretary of state Jim Murphy was keen to point out; the bail out of the banks would have crippled the scottish budget."

AHH: "Those numbers I was quoting have a calculation of what Scotland's share of the bail out of the banks is, and that's incorporated in that number; the surplus of £1.3 billion. You can have an argument as to whether the Treasury's got those numbers right...It would appear that Scotland could survive that [the bail-out]. One of the reasons of course is bailing out the banks, and of course two of the biggest banks here were scottish banks, but they had substantial acivities in England as well as elsewhere and therefore the burden of bailing them out would have had to have been shared in any case. There are plenty of precedencts for that. The Dutch/French banks and the Belgian/French banks had to be bailed out jointly by the responsible authorities.

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DB: ?Mr Swinney is making this case about the union, would something like the Calman proposals go anywhere near providing what you are outlining there??

AHH: ?They would make a VERY SMALL START. We can have a very long discussion on this but the Calman proposals are actually UNWORKABLE because they assume you have got information which you don?t have, so you have to forecast into the future what tax revenues would be to make it work and secondly, and this is actually an important point, they are crucially sensitive to changes in the, lets call it for the sake of discussion, the english tax system. That's to say if you make a change, as they are doing at the moment, in the thresholds of what tax has to be paid and you raise them .. this would lower revenues going to scotland. in the rest of the uk, they'd be compensated for that loss of revenue by raisingtax rates on national insurance and capital gains but Scotland can't raise that so can't compensate, so scotland would lose out on that regime so that resime [Calman] has to be changed.... The Treasury has agreed that the proposals have to be modified, they don't work as they stand. If you made them work it would just be a very small step in that direction. The other very big problem is that income tax revenues as we've discovered only too painfully in the last fe years are very variable. Of course at the UK level when tax levels go down they borrow. But if Scotland was doing it they can't borrow. So there would be a great deal of 'dislocation' if you operated the system [Calman] as it stands at the moment.

CogitoErgoSometimes · 12/01/2012 09:37

"the BBC are portraying Salmond as a wily politician, biding his time, tricks up his sleeve, etc"

That's an image Mr Salmond himself - wily curmudgeon defending his little country against the English oppressor - has been very careful to cultivate because he knows it plays well at home. I'm actually quite enjoying watching what's happening from the aspect of strategy and, dare I say, gamesmanship. Salmond vs Cameron is quite an even match and therefore highly entertaining.

My prediction at the start of the year was that there will be a big scandal that will shake Scottish politics. We've had the opening salvo and response- fairly polite so far. I would expect 'playing the man, not the ball' to follow e.g. Salmond's friendly letters to the RBS Chief Exec and Rupert Murdoch are already being re-examined. The Megrahi release may yet provide more ammunition.

OP posts:
AitchTwoOhOneTwo · 12/01/2012 12:00

"That's an image Mr Salmond himself - wily curmudgeon defending his little country against the English oppressor - has been very careful to cultivate because he knows it plays well at home. "

as someone 'at home' i'm not sure i recognise that characterisation tbh. he's never stuck me as at all curmudgeonly, rather too jolly and well-fed if you ask me, but if by wily you mean clever then yes i think we'd like that in a politician, wouldn't we?

AitchTwoOhOneTwo · 12/01/2012 12:02

(although do totally agree with your second para, i think with no mandate here whatsoever Cameron is going to pull out all the stops to fuck Scotland up, just like his mummy did).

molschambers · 12/01/2012 12:43

Aitch Interesting reading.

I get riled by the bile spewed forth by those that truly believe that we get free prescriptions, university education etc paid for by the English tax payer. Er no actually. We pay taxes too. We have an budget allocated to Holyrood and they decide how to spend it. If we get these things paid for it is because the government has chosen to invest there rather than elsewhere. Bring it up with your MP!

niceguy2 · 12/01/2012 12:46

Aitch. Assuming Scotland votes to be independent, how do you think the national debt should be divided?

What I mean is, if we owe say £1 trillion right now, would Scotland agree to take on the proportion of the debt to population? Or do you think Scotland should start with a clean slate?

And the banks. RBS in particular. I assume in any split, you would want to see banks like RBS HBOS remain Scottish? In which case would Scotland therefore take back the £180 billion (est) in toxic assets currently held by the treasury or would you see that as unfair?

AitchTwoOhOneTwo · 12/01/2012 12:50

isn't your second question dealt with by the hallett interview?
and i presume the debt would be divvied on a per capita basis.

niceguy2 · 12/01/2012 13:14

Well I was wondering what your opinion was so you answered the debt bit which is fine. I take it then if you agree with the Hallett interview then that your opinion would be that in the event of any split, you'd like England and Scotland to divvy up the toxic assets? Does that mean then that we'd also divvy up the shares the govt currently owns?

AMumInScotland · 12/01/2012 13:24

Personally, I'd say the default for assets or debts ought to be to divide them out on a per-capita basis, if they "belong" to the UK as a whole. There might be other answers to specifics - like the NHS was mentioned earlier and is already split so there is a Scottish section. But most things would probably be per capita, which I think is about 8% to us?

AitchTwoOhOneTwo · 12/01/2012 13:26

not sure about that, niceguy, i'd refer to precedent of other banks that have been saved across countries.

chipstick10 · 12/01/2012 13:43

I think England should have a say. Its outrageous that we are not being given this. Personally i would vote for total independence.

molschambers · 12/01/2012 13:46

I suppose the English could have a referendum on whether they want to opt out of the UK. No reason why they should have any right to vote on whether another country can opt out.

fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 12/01/2012 13:49

ElBurroSinNombre - how dare you say the Scots have an "intolerance to other cultures". How offensive.