Cap child tax credit after four children, says MP

[SardineQueen]

here

One of nadine's friends!

I'm not surprised to see this from a conservative MP, as ever I think this sort of thing is a terrible idea - children don't choose to be born and by restricting benefits in this way you are punishing the children for something you disapprove of the parents doing. And as I understand it the number of people with no work ever and loads of children is actually very low? So this sort of policy doesn't actually save much money at all. Can't remember where I saw that though.

I am sure there will be some who disagree. I thought that people who post here might be interested anyway.

yeah cardboard boxes and strap the extra carseat onto the roof of the car, sure that would be fine

not touchwood i wont get pregnant, we are being careful on the rare occasion we actually have enough energy to have sex!

Fuck sake, scarletsmummy - NOT everyone CAN earn more than minimum wage. Otherwise there wouldn't be so much competition FOR minimum wage jobs. What do you propose someone like my DD who has SN that have been FAILED by the education system do to earn more than NMW? She will be LUCKY, frankly, to GET a NMW job.

Does that mean she should never have any dc? Because THAT IS straying into Eugenics...

OK, so if 'every baby is a choice' does that mean that you can chose to have an abortion?

What if, like me, you WERE IN long term-relationships - My first dc, I had been with her father for over a year, had unplanned pg due to contraception failure. DS1 I was MARRIED at the time, then I discovered that Ex-H was an abusive, cheating wankstain. DS2 and DS3 I was in a long-term relationship - DS2 is 8yo, DS3 is 9mo, so over 7yrs my contraception WORKED for. Then Ex-P chose to fuck off, after 9 years. . Yes, I am feckless and have purposely popped out baby after baybee for da money, innit. .

So, despite the fact that I have had miscarriages and a stillbirth in the past, and the fact that my Ex-P was working FT when we had our youngest 2 dc - I should have KILLED my DS3 by having an abortion. Even though I was not in posession of a crystal ball that would tell me that my partner of 9 years was going to walk out? And, in fact, he didn't walk out until DS3 was 4mo - was I meant to commit infanticide then? Or do I have to accept that I have 4 dc on benefits, and to try to minimise my chances of having any more by not getting into a new relationship until my PCT agrees to BLOODY STERILISE ME? Which is what I AM doing BTW - staying single until I have been sterilised. But WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO?

Why SHOULD I have to stay lonely every night, just because I am 'too young' to be sterilised, even though I have been asking since my second dc was born nearly 10 years ago? Why SHOULD I turn down dates, just because I am poor?

well you obviously shouldnt have got in to such crap relationships then hunty i mean that was your fault after all? oh wait no you cant tell that someone is going to turn out to be a bastard can you, its bad luck!

funny how those that havent had such bad luck are the ones to try and tell those that do what they are/have been doing wrong and that its their own fault...

Hunty you appear to know the system inside out. Wrt to your comment about "And a vasectomy is all well and good - but most men in my area WON'T have a vasectomy, and the PCT won't do it unless the man has at least 2 living dc."

That is absolute rubbish, I know that as I live in your area and every man I know with children has had a vasectomy, we also had a pioneering surgeon who introduced the concept of Laser Vasectomies and ran a very busy and succesful clinic while also running a GP practice. She was also very amenable about donating free vasectomies if a student could be present.

So from that I can only assume you are spouting a lot of nonsense or you should really be more circumspect about the men you mix with and certainly the ones you allow to impregnate you.

As HarryHillatemyGoldfish said every baby born in Britain today is through choice. I am also amazed that people I know who are struggling don't have "accidents" because they make bloody certain they don't have them.

As for my "sanitised" view of the world, I prefer to call it personal standards.

'Odd too, don't you think that so many people on benefits have unplanned pregnancies/problems with contraception/new partners and new babies etc etc.'

There does seem to be a lot of this. There are some threads on here now where you rather think, 'Didn't you think of this before you decided to go through with the pregnancy/not double up on contraception?'

I grew up in a place without extensive welfare, and never met men who didn't use condoms or women who didn't use the pill and then tell the man to use a condom, too, because teh consequences of having a baby meant you really did have to pay for it, all of it.

And, IMO as the money the Government gives you is classed as the 'minimum amount needed to live off', it is NOT that benefits should be dropped, more that Minimum wage should be RAISED to meet the national 'average' wage. Which is at a level that MOST people on MN would struggle to live off - National 'average' wage is £26K pa before tax. National MINIMUM wage is £11.8K before tax. LESS THAN HALF OF WHAT WOULD STILL BE A LOW WAGE FFS.

And how are people SUPPOSED to get a job paying better than NMW when even the not-so-thick ones have often been totally failed by the education system? The main reason that the poverty cycle continues is because if the parents were educated at a sink school, and their dc go there too, they have little chance to break free. Getting EVERY school to be an 'outstanding' school is the key IMO.

I'm quite sure that a Country like Germany DOESN'T have such marked differences in the quality of the schools that the UK does. That's the problem IMO, the inequality in the education system in the UK.

And while my DD will be lucky to get a NMW job - my 9yo DS1 is doing very well at school, is going to sit the 11+, wants to go to the Grammar school, and has ambitions of becoming either an oncologist or a neurologist. They have seen me work 60 hour weeks despite being a Lone parent with disabilities in the past, they have seen my Ex-P work long hours for low pay, they are not short of 'working' role models.

I have not been out of work for the whole time I have been a lone parent - in 13 years I have worked for 7 of them. But, at times, due to redundancy, due to disability, due to my caring responsibilities for DD, due to being a SAHP, I HAVE been out of work. Currently I am out of work on benefits, and I am unable to work due to lack of SN childcare for my DD. And I HAVE tried, recently. I worked for 3 weeks in September, but DD's SN childminder gave me notice ON MY FIRST DAY as she was used to 3yo's with asd, not 13yo's that can't be strapped into a pram when they are having a meltdown...

Alouisee - I DO know that my PCT WOULDN'T send my Ex-H for a sterilisation after DS1 because he only had one dc. I also have 2 friends, one who has 3 dc, one who has 4 dc, who have LEFT their partners because their partners REFUSED to have a vasectomy because "No-one is messing with my bits".

I'll bet every man you know doesn't come from a background where being ABLE to father dc 'makes them a man', and taking away that ability makes them 'less of a man'. Which a lot of the poorer men I meet do.

'Alouisee - I DO know that my PCT WOULDN'T send my Ex-H for a sterilisation after DS1 because he only had one dc. I also have 2 friends, one who has 3 dc, one who has 4 dc, who have LEFT their partners because their partners REFUSED to have a vasectomy because "No-one is messing with my bits".'

It's pretty easy to contest the PCT on this and women can get sterilised, too.

My husband had the snip AND we use another form of contraception. No accidents. Never had any accidents in 32 years because I knew very well that if I got pregnant, I was on my own accepting whatever it was the father was going to be forced to pay.

That's got nothing to do with being poor and everything to do with being stupid.

Nothing to do with being poor at all. We're utterly brassic and always have been. That's why we make sure we don't have any more children.

I also make my children aware that if they fall pregnant, they need to find somewhere else to live. I'm not doing this again. Ever.

And yes, I AM more circumspect about the men I mix with - it is usually their PARTNERS I mix with, or even, in fact, their EX-PARTNERS.

MY personal choice would have been to be sterilised when I had 2 dc (MUCH as I love Ds2 and DS3). I agree with PREVENTION of pregnancy - but I do NOT agree with abortion as a form of contraception.

My OWN standards are what is making me say no to dates, and to make sure that I do not embark on a new relationship before I have been sterilised, given the problems I have with contraception. This is MY way of ensuring that I don't have any more accidents. But it is a BLOODY LONELY choice to have to make when I am only 30yo, and many people my age just wouldn't become celibate. And latex-free condoms are NOT given out by the NHS any longer. They are very expensive.

And, as an aside - what about people in abusive relationships who have been FORCED to have sex without contraception? I have a friend who has 4 dc because of an abusive relationship like this - and she had 7 terminations behind his back. It was after the 7th one that she finally managed to get a refuge that had space for all 4 of her dc...Should SHE not get help because she has a large family?

I agree EminenceGrise.

That's called closing the stable door after the horse has bolted Hunty!

and many people my age just wouldn't become celibate. And latex-free condoms are NOT given out by the NHS any longer. They are very expensive.

So we're all supposed to pay for that forever why?

The move is for no more, additional benefits for over 4 children, so if you have more than that, you'll need to budget accordingly, not no benefits at all.

OK, eminencegrise - I have spent 10 years fighting to be allowed to be sterilised, I have written appeal letters to the PCT and lost on appeal (I was 28 with 3 dc, and a stillbirth as well at that point, AND I have additional health problems that makes pregnancy difficult, AND hereditory disabilities in my family too). I was still turned down, and told to come back when I was 34.

I have requested sterilisation since having 9mo DS3 too - I was referred to the Gynae Consultant, who took one look at my age, and refused me again.

'Stupid'? Are you resorting to insults now, Alouisee? Poorly educated, possibly. With Learning difficulties, possibly, but 'stupid'?

Sorry, missed out quotation marks.

'and many people my age just wouldn't become celibate. And latex-free condoms are NOT given out by the NHS any longer. They are very expensive. '

I mean, here's a thought, BUY YOUR OWN CONDOMS or say NO to sex till you have the money for them? Personal responsibility, imagine that?

K, then, Hunty, tough for you then. Buy some latex free condoms or don't have sex till they do it.

I don't see where your own personal situation is a reason why everyone should pay for people having more than 4 children.

Because to me, having more than that when you know you can't afford it without significant government top ups is feckless.

Yes, and I agree UP TO A POINT. While I am trying my best to make sure that I do not have any more dc, I do not want to see the CHILDREN of other people who DON'T do their best to ensure that they do not have any more dc to SUFFER.

I can understand people's opinion when I see one or two families living on the estate I live on - but with the vast majority of the unemployed families I see, there are extenuating circumstances as to WHY they are in that position. So THEY will probably be made to suffer because of the minority of people who DO abuse the system.

Yes, I find the condoms thing very interesting too, presumably you've been out on a few dates with these men? I'm sure they wouldn't object to buying latex free condoms instead of normal ones.

Hunty, I did not call you stupid, merely the men who think fathering a child is the be all and end all of manhood.

And I won't have a different opinion even if I suddenly got a job that put me in the highest tax bracket - I still wouldn't want to take money away from genuine claimants, on the offchance that I would stop ONE family 'scrounging'. I didn't have a different opinion when both Ex-P and I were working FT, about £1 a month over the TC limit, that left us worse off than me being a SAHP / both on benefits - because at the time we WERE both able to work FT. And we were both paying tax.

Well, they've been warned then. The changes are coming. Start making provision now or if not there will be consequences. We're talking about no additional monies for over 4 children, not no more benefits at all.

Hmm, well, I certainly did my share of dating and sleeping around. What would I have said to a man who didn't use a condom? 'Goodbye'. Why? Because I knew where I was there would be no help if I got pregnant or even picked up a disease.

I'm sure we'll hear all about 'What if it's rape?' in response to that. I've been raped as well. The vast majority of the time, it's not rape, it's not caring enough about yourself to bother.

I know - but I STILL don't think it's 'stupid'. Yes, it is immoral, feckless, poorly thought out, possibly due to low intelligence, possibly due to poor education, possibly due to a poor upbringing - but they are not 'stupid'.

Stupid in my eyes is an insult, not a descriptive word.

It would be like me saying that these men are dickheads of the highest order. They may be, but insults have no place in a reasoned discussion, surely?

Well why would you want to sleep with and possibly conceive a child with a man who is "Immoral, feckless or poorly thought out" ?