Cap child tax credit after four children, says MP

[SardineQueen]

here

One of nadine's friends!

I'm not surprised to see this from a conservative MP, as ever I think this sort of thing is a terrible idea - children don't choose to be born and by restricting benefits in this way you are punishing the children for something you disapprove of the parents doing. And as I understand it the number of people with no work ever and loads of children is actually very low? So this sort of policy doesn't actually save much money at all. Can't remember where I saw that though.

I am sure there will be some who disagree. I thought that people who post here might be interested anyway.

So, eminencegrise - do you disagree that there are a LOT of relationships where the woman is forced to have sex, or raped? Because I know of at least 12 of my friends, off the top of my head, who have been in relationships, either now or in the past, where they have been forced to have sex against their will. Happily, 11 of those 12 friends are now OUT of their abusive relationships - but how can you say that 'it's not rape, it's not caring enough about yourself to bother.'. They cared enough to ultimately get OUT of those relationships in the end. Does it mean that because they didn't 'care enough about themselves to bother.' that THEY are responsible for the fact that they were forced into having sex that they didn't want, and was often without contraception?

Most people don't have 12 close friends let alone 12 friends who were forced into sex and 7 abortions?

Either you're exaggerating to make a point or you're lying.

Because you often don't KNOW that they are feckless to start with. Do feckless men come with a flashing neon sign above their head? How long should you be in a relationship for before you TTC? Because I know people that have been with their partners for 10 years, their DP's/DH's seemed perfectly respectable - until their DP's/DW's became pg, or until the wedding night. A LOT of men change after you have got married, or when you fall pg. You only have to look at DV statistics to see this. It's EASY for better educated women to see warning signs of an abusive man - not so easy for someone who has grown up seeing an abusive relationship between their PARENTS, and has not been well educated on these issues at school either. They certainly didn't do a class called 'Warning signs of abusive men' when I was at school!

And, BTW - ALL my dc have been conceived whilst I have been using some form of contraception, before you start accusing ME of being reckless. DD - pill AND condom AND MAP. DS1 - Depo injection. DS2 - Mirena Coil (he came out holding it). DS3 - Condoms AND implant. . Abstinence IS my only effective contraceptive choice at present.

Unfortunately, Alouisee, I wish I was exaggerating or lying. I have a lot of friends, and a lot of people seem to confide in me, and ask me for advice on what to do, as they know I have personal experience of situations like this. And are you saying that to have a large circle of friends, from ALL walks of life is unusual? I have a HUGE circle of friends and acquaintances, all of whom I spend time with socialising, from the couples where the DH works in the financial sector in London and the DW is a GP, to the ones that are unemployed living in temporary accommodation as they have just left the refuge.

No Warning Signs of Abusive Men when any of us were at school and I'm certainly not "better educated".

FGS, yes, of course, all these 'accidental' pregnancies resulting in over 4 kids it's abusive, rape, etc. It's someone else's fault, yep, absolutely, so the world and his wife should pay for that, forever.

NOT.

Ain't gonna happen.

That's funny Hunty because I distinctly remember you with your old name saying that you were fed up because you only had one close friend.

I think we need to empower women to note the warning signs, I am not sure how that can happen but it needs to.

I can now see looking back at my abusive relationship that it was always going to happen. The warning signs are like huge belisha beacons hovering over my past.

However being naive, desperate to escape an abusive family and having no experience of positive relationships I managed to either ignore or not see the warning signs. I take some responsibility for that, I made stupid choices despite being educated in terms of academia but not life.

As a mother I have instilled into my daughter the need for self respect, to surround herself with people that respect her and make her feel good about herself and to take shit from no one. Most importantly my dd feels that she is a valuable person. I was raised to think I was a useless shit destined for a life of further shit.

Everything alouise and eminence have said I agree with.

Too stupid/manly to get the snip? Fine. But don't expect me to fund your offspring.
Sleeping ( through choice) with a man too stupid/manly to get the snip? Fine. But don't expect me to fund your offspring.

You know, I managed to avoid having children until I was married, secure, earning and in my thirties. All my friends seemed to have done pretty much the same.

Someone very wise once said that ambition is the greatest contraception.
Never has that rung more true.
NOTHING and I mean NOTHING would have made me have a child at 18/19/20 etc. A life on benefits in a council flat with an uncommitted/feckless/useless/unfaithful partner was not a life I was going to choose. And I am not alone.
It is not about luck always but self esteem and choice.

"I'm sure we'll hear all about 'What if it's rape?' in response to that. I've been raped as well. The vast majority of the time, it's not rape, it's not caring enough about yourself to bother." fucking hell of all the horrible comments to read on mn! another woman saying that most rapes arent actually rapes its that the women having looked after themselves properly!!

and harryhill i think hunty has said she WAS using contraception each time she got pregnant, it didnt work!!

and yes self esteem and ambition and education has a huge amount to do with it, but how do you start to put that right? self confidence starts forming at a very young age and a lot can happen in a childs life to damage that, and our education system is crap, there are too many failing or 'adequate' schools and its the poor that suffer from this, not those who move to get their kids in a good school or who go private, but those that cant move or cant afford private education. its not their fault that the school system is failing them and their children.

but withdrawring benefits isnt going to stop this problem, it needs targeted reform and support for children from poor back grounds, a lot of these people are no more stupid than you and i but they haven had the opportunities and support that others have had.

I don't agree that our education system is wholescale crap but I do agree the schools that serve our most vulerable children are often found wanting - perhaps not surprisingly as that is a difficult environment in which to work.

I think sure start was aiming to deal with these problems from a youg age , however those people who needs those services the most are the mos reluctant to attend. So you have resources set up for one client base but used by another.

I consider myself very lucky that there were schemes like surestart around to help me when I hit rock bottom. Yes it cost the tax payer money but it was an investment worth paying. Even if you just want to look in economic terms it is cheaper to help me in the short term than put my dd in care. Because of the support I was given I made the leap within just over five years from someone on benefits to HRT. I suspect my dd will also do very well in life, because of the support I was given. Personally I think you cannot put a price on the fact that schemes like sure start managed to "fix" my family.

4madboys - i agree with your comments about self esteem, education and ambition. one way of stopping the endless cycle of this would be to reduce the number of children that bad parents have. Contraceptive implants for anyone on benefits with 2 children or more would be a start. Unless its shown to be against their religion and then they would have to demonstrate regular church attendance, for example

This could be combined with pre and post school clubs where the kids were fed properly and given good role models including tips on not getting into abusive relationships. If a parent can't afford breakfast for a child surely this is because they drink/smoke/inject all the benefits money and don't care a dam for the child...how much is a cheap loaf of bread?

'another woman saying that most rapes arent actually rapes its that the women having looked after themselves properly!!

Well, that's not what I meant. I mean the vast majority of the time, all these 'accidental' pregnancies are because people arent' as careful as they can be with birth control.

And I stand by that.

And it's not about withdrawing benefits, it's about no further benefits after FOUR kids.

I agee with that, too.

and how do you decide who is a 'bad' parent then dreaming that is a riddiculous idea, how about helping them and supporting them to become better parents, how about we target money to those areas instead of getting rid of surestart centres, help those schools that need support because they have high numbers of children with a difficult background. oh no lets just take away their right to reproduce!! you do realise where policies like that lead, well they are bad parents so they cant have anymore, they wont be good parents in the first place lets not let them have children. they arent smart enough, well educated enough so they cant have children etc.

you just cannot introduce a policy that STOPS people having children just because we dont think they are the right sort of parents.

some of the parents i know that love their children the most arent ideal parents but they are trying their best against a difficult background of not having good parents themselves and struggling with poverty and lack of education themselves, but to tell them they cant have any more children once they have 2, cos thats the 'magic' number... eugenics here we come.

'you just cannot introduce a policy that STOPS people having children just because we dont think they are the right sort of parents.'

You can make a policy that says, no additional benefits monies after 4 kids and people cut their cloth accordingly.

4madboys would that be the Evil Tory policy of the Pupil premium? Whereby every child on free school meals brings in £500 a year? A policy which effectively punishes the children of working parents by depriving them of thousands of pounds in schools which the children of non working parents enjoy?

It's actually simple.

No additional money for more than four children for those as yet not conceived.

So yunno, you can choose.

Surely to most people it is plain common sense to hold off having children until you can house, clothe and feed them. If people don't have that common sense and have a child whose needs they cant meet then maybe the best thing for everybody is a long term contraceptive implant until they are able to rectify that situation.

If doctors get funding for immunising babies I see no reason why they can't be incentivised to push contraception.

Wrt to who makes that decision I'm happy to apply for the job.

'If people don't have that common sense and have a child whose needs they cant meet then maybe the best thing for everybody is a long term contraceptive implant '

Awaits chorus of how some people can't use long-term contraception, are you suggesting sterilising some people yadda yadda yadda.

I wonder how some of the posters moralising here about large families on benefits would manage if their husbands walked out...

I'm lucky in that if mine ever shagged the proverbial secretary and ran for the hills I could still support my two children without state help but I recognise that. Lucky. I can still sympathise with those who find themselves in a bad situation and am under no illusions that no matter how strong my marriage, well-paid my job, it could happen to me too. There but for the grace of God etc.

Hmmm, HuntyCat normally has an opinion on that. Wonder why she's left the thread

4madboys - someone who has more children when they can't support the ones they already have, would be one way to spot a bad parent.

yourmother - like you i would manage fine as i could still support mine and i like to think that as i chose a responsible father he would support them even if he did leave. i see you have stopped at 2 kids. plus we are talking here about people who already are on benefits having more children...not people who find themselves in a difficult situation once they have had them...so your example isn't relevant.

'I wonder how some of the posters moralising here about large families on benefits would manage if their husbands walked out...'

Well, considering this thread is about no FURTHER tax credits beyond FOUR children and not 'No benefits anymore ever', I fail to see the juxtaposition between this sentence and the thread topic.

And why is it that the husband walks out and the person automatically goes on full state benefit? To me, that's a real flaw in the system, that a person can leave the family he/she created and the state has to pick up the entire tab. But that's a whole other topic, I suppose.

We'd have to do what every other divorced couple do. As in sell the house, liquidate or split any assets and come to an arrangement about child support.

How that is relevant to this thread is beyond me.