Greeks. Cats. Pigeons.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

Greek PM calls a referendum on the bailout/austerity package.... doesn't tell his own Finance Minister. Trying to nut through the rationale for this move and failing miserably. Any takers?

'Will we have to go through another round of recapitalising the banks, the figures involved seem to huge to be real.'

I think that may well be necessary. Cui bono? The banks will be recapitalised "because they are too big to fail", and the people across Europe and in Greece have to pay the price. Austerity, pension cuts, benefit cuts across Europe. It's the same old, same old. It's almost as if it was to plan.

'I wonder what the total exposure of European banks is to Greek debt?'

I think it is mainly French banks that are exposed directly, but of course the banks are interlinked in a globalised world, so the effect could go further.

It depends what the real aim behind it all is. I think it may be to force through a tighter fiscal union in Europe without asking teh people to vote on it as usual. They probably don't need or want Greece in that tighter union, so Greece may be allowed to leave via a referendum, possibly. Greece and Ireland etc. have just been the catalyst that will lead to a tighter union and closer integration. But I think that tighter austerity Europe-wide is also part of the plan, so things are unlikely to get better anytime soon.

The French won't say what theirs is.

Funny.

The other possibility is that there are forces whose interest it is to see the destruction of the Euro and that countries are being picked off one at a time, with the markets being used to downgrade their creditworthiness and put the Euro and the EU Central Banks under pressure.

But I think a closer fiscal union is more likely to be the real objective. I think a lot of this is theatre to frighten people into accepting that union.

The Greek politicians and the international financial advisers who advised them and helped produce the figures for Euro entry must have known the consequences and must be responsible for what happened. I think they set Greece up. The Greek people know it, which is why they are out in the streets.

Disputandum - The old pensions chestnut again. According to your sources, exactly what percentage of the Greek people retire early? And how high were the xmas and Easter bonuses (now abolished)?

From OECD 2009:

Greece:
Average Age of Retirement:
Men:
Official: 65 Effective:61.9 (Germany 61.8, France 59.1, Slovak Republic 59.9)

Women:
Official: 60 Effective: 59.6 (Germany 60.5, France 59.7, Slovak Republic 56.2)

I can't speak for everyone, but my bonuses were not even a third of my monthly salary, and my fairly typical Greek pensioner MIL (who retired at 60, incidentally) says much the same thing. And given the low pensions, these bonuses were widely regarded as essential to pay the bills.

I am not trying to defend some of Greece's frankly idiotic economic policies over the years, but there is enough to genuinely criticise without yet more hyperbole about people retiring young.

We are told the pensions propaganda for a reason. We have to educated that we must accept later retirement, because anything else is not "sustainable". Greece is shown to us as an example of what can happen if we do not accept later retirement. Eventually, it will be extended to "work till you drop" and we will need more examples to persuade us of that necessity.

Labour's Harriet Harman was working on increasing pensionable age, then the Coalition took over the baton and speeded it up. The elite want this to happen all over Europe. That's why Berlusconi, who is also coincidentally under financial pressure from the "markets", has had to suggest a 67 year retirement in Italy. But Italy is not as easy to convince as the UK. The right wing Umberto Bossi has said it is "impossibile" that Italians will have to retire at 67. It could even threaten the fall of Berlusconi's government. But the elite don't care, because a left wing governemnt is even easier to control than Umberto Bossi.

Countries that are not easy to convince will come under financial pressure from the "markets" until they change their tune.

It's all about implementing austerity. A tighter fiscal union will enable an unelected Central Committee to implement that austerity Europe-wide.

What the fuck is the Greek PM playing at? Berlosconi is kicking off too.

The latest austerity propaganda that I saw on Newsnight was one of their reports on how we should start eating "environmentally friendly" food - that is code for ants, beetles and locusts. All the elite's "sustainable" save the planet types were on pushing the elite's message to the public with a straight face.

That's the type of austerity the elites have got planned for the people. Expect to see more reports on the necessity of it in the future.

Alexpolismum - take it up with New York Times. According to them, 14% of employees retire early. That's anyone on a list of 580 'hazardous' jobs..bomb disposal experts, coal miners and..erm..hairdressers (dangerous chemicals) and radio presenters (bacteria on microphones).

I think it's a brilliant move by him, he gets either a clear mandate for cuts if the Greeks say yes to the bailout, he also gets a good bargaining chip for better terms. If the Greeks say no, and it all goes tits up, he gets to shrug off the responsibility for telling the troika to stuff it. You are not going to get many politicians openly decrying the whole democracy lark.

I imagine he will go on Friday though, whether he can get re-elected is another matter.

And Reuters reports here about how public sector workers receive 14 months of pay per year; half a month at Easter, half a month in the summer and a whole month at Christmas.

On top of that the article refers to foresters receiving a bonus for working outdoors, and some civil servants receiving one for using a computer.

Your anecdotes are interesting alespolismum, but I would respectfully point out that you were in the wrong job.

If the Greek Government falls or the referendum whenever it is held is lost then it will cause chaos and economic disaster in the Eurozone as the markets will turn on them and this would probably take Britain down too due to the drop in trade and the impact it would have on our financial crisis. Why some people think this would be a good thing baffles me.

I'm willing to bet that the pay is generally low though Disputandum, or is it only acceptable for the already loaded to get bonuses?

Do the Greeks get tax credits? These are essentially a "bonus", you know, to allow working poor people to do extravagant things like eat and cover their bodies in fabric.

I don't think a Greek default is a good thing, just an inevitable thing. Probably better for them to default and return to the Drachma, obviously they would still suffer in the short to medium term, but having control of their own currency would surely allow them to rebuild their economy in the long term, instead of struggling for decades with huge debt.

I don't care who gets a bonus as long as the state could afford it, but it turns out they couldn't.

Newsnight is reporting on Europe trying to impose austerity on Italy. The Italians are resistant. There are calls to get rid of some of their religious holidays to keep the workers working harder. They are trying to hit the Church. They want to reduce workers' rights in Italy. All of these things are the goal of the elites.

Disputandum- I agree totally Greek economic policy has been disasterous in recent years where fiscal policy has been dreadful and public spending allowed to get totally out of control and it will hurt them for the next 10-15 years.

Cameron likes us to think about it all in terms of our own household budget, so I will now do so. If I borrowed a whole ton of money that was lent to me by people who knew I couldn't pay it back really, and then couldn't pay it back, was faced with years and years of absolute misery on the breadline paying it back in dribs and drabs with creditors hanging over me the whole time, know what I'd do? I'd declare bankrupcy and sod the creditors
(well this is a fictional me cos I don't really like debt and I'd probably really be the stupid one who kept on paying back all those debts)

I really hope a whole load of hedge funds lose a whole ton of money over this

sorry - that's the best in the way of financial analysis i can muster, but hey, if we're all supposed to relate to these problems like they're our own personal budgets now, it must be insightful, right?

Another article from the NY times about corruption and tax evasion in Greece. If true I just don't understand how people could enjoy such generous public spending whilst seemingly having such low regard for contributing towards the common good.

Why didn't they report all these things about Greece before? Why were all the banks lending them money hand over fist and advising them and preparing their figures so that they could enter the Euro? Why didn't countries protest at Greece's entry and bring some of these facts up? Why did they let them into the Euro?

Do you think that all these clever financial institutions and credit rating agencies didn't know? Why do you think they are telling you all about it now?

I'm sorry but the corruption and tax evasion by Greek citizens is so irrelevant. I have no idea why people are so keen to pin this whole crisis to the lapels of the average citizen. It's systematic and it is the Governments and Banks who are to blame.

I have read so many blogs and analyses that my mind is in a spin, I can't claim to understand the whole CDS thing or the whole leveraging thing, but I know enough to call BS.

Apparently the whole CDS thing is like $1500 trillion dollars, more money than is in the world, they all insured each other, they lent imaginary money to make more imaginary money.

It will all come crashing down, this whole debt fiasco cannot continue, it's just when really.

'It will all come crashing down, this whole debt fiasco cannot continue, it's just when really.'

Lots of the left think it is a failure of capitalism. It's not a failure of capitalism. The string pullers are in control and they pull the plug when they decide. The result of them pulling the plug is austerity for the public.

But it's not Capitalism is it, when banks are bailed out at the expense of the tax payers Capitalism, has long gone bye bye.