Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Politics

Occupying Wall Street?

119 replies

SephreniaRidesABroomstick · 01/10/2011 01:48

I've just come across this occupation of Wall Street(]]www.thetruthdenied.com/news/2011/09/29/the-declaration-of-the-occupation-of-new-york-city/ link]]) but I really don't understand how it all started and what results it's meant to yield.

Can someone dumb it down for me? I'd like to understand it but as it appears to be already way under way, I've become kind of lost. It does all appear to be rather idealistic and hopeful (which is no bad thing!) and movements and rallies like this always seem to get beaten back down again by the state.

I'd like to know what, if anything, makes this one different to others.

OP posts:
aliceliddell · 03/10/2011 13:50

Oh, they're not snidey, glasnost. They're quite overt about it. Brazen, even. Have you been on the Dale Farm threads?

glasnost · 03/10/2011 17:43

Wheelchair access even worse in Rome else I'd invite you on that one too.

I meant snidey in the sense of that very English uptight, acerbic attempts at belittling those who dare to express an opinion that deviates from their own pat, trite views as inculcated by the rightwing press. ie bloody all of it. (Yes and that includes the Guardian).

And no I wouldn't dirty myself by going on those threads as I'm sure there are troglodytes on there invoking the gas chambers or somesuch. They wouldn't come on the politics section though, would they? This is for a more pretentious type of rancid rigthwinger.

SephreniaRidesABroomstick · 04/10/2011 00:01

Wow, I turn away for a few hours and the thread has grown massively! I haven't read it all yet but I'm really happy to see that this is being discussed in a way I can follow

Is it true that children were arrested on the Brooklyn Bridge?

I've also come across this: Occupy Together while trying to get caught up on how this all started and how it's grown.

Can I also ask, what would be the best (or worst, depending on your viewpoint) outcome of this and what could it mean in regards to the economy?

Apologies for sounding a bit thick, I'm trying to learn, honestly Blush

OP posts:
ttosca · 04/10/2011 08:26

Seph-

Is it true that children were arrested on the Brooklyn Bridge?

Yes.

Can I also ask, what would be the best (or worst, depending on your viewpoint) outcome of this and what could it mean in regards to the economy?

As you rightly note, this is a matter of opinion. I would rather see a wholesale change of the entire political and economic order. What the world needs now more than ever is real participatory democracy and social justice.

What I would settle for, at least in the short term, is radical change of the existing order, with social justice, democracy, and economic equality at its heart. We know such radical changes are possible. We've seen it with the post-WWII consensus which built the NHS and the welfare state.

The worst case scenario, of course, is no change. If this happen, it will simply postpone a greater crisis further down the road.

ttosca · 04/10/2011 08:27

Occupy Wall Street rediscovers the radical imagination

The young people protesting in Wall Street and beyond reject this vain economic order. They have come to reclaim the future

Why are people occupying Wall Street? Why has the occupation ? despite the latest police crackdown ? sent out sparks across America, within days, inspiring hundreds of people to send pizzas, money, equipment and, now, to start their own movements called OccupyChicago, OccupyFlorida, in OccupyDenver or OccupyLA?

There are obvious reasons. We are watching the beginnings of the defiant self-assertion of a new generation of Americans, a generation who are looking forward to finishing their education with no jobs, no future, but still saddled with enormous and unforgivable debt. Most, I found, were of working-class or otherwise modest backgrounds, kids who did exactly what they were told they should: studied, got into college, and are now not just being punished for it, but humiliated ? faced with a life of being treated as deadbeats, moral reprobates.

Is it really surprising they would like to have a word with the financial magnates who stole their future?

Just as in Europe, we are seeing the results of colossal social failure. The occupiers are the very sort of people, brimming with ideas, whose energies a healthy society would be marshaling to improve life for everyone. Instead, they are using it to envision ways to bring the whole system down.

But the ultimate failure here is of imagination. What we are witnessing can also be seen as a demand to finally have a conversation we were all supposed to have back in 2008. There was a moment, after the near-collapse of the world's financial architecture, when anything seemed possible.

Everything we'd been told for the last decade turned out to be a lie. Markets did not run themselves; creators of financial instruments were not infallible geniuses; and debts did not really need to be repaid ? in fact, money itself was revealed to be a political instrument, trillions of dollars of which could be whisked in or out of existence overnight if governments or central banks required it. Even the Economist was running headlines like "Capitalism: Was it a Good Idea?"

It seemed the time had come to rethink everything: the very nature of markets, money, debt; to ask what an "economy" is actually for. This lasted perhaps two weeks. Then, in one of the most colossal failures of nerve in history, we all collectively clapped our hands over our ears and tried to put things back as close as possible to the way they'd been before.

Perhaps, it's not surprising. It's becoming increasingly obvious that the real priority of those running the world for the last few decades has not been creating a viable form of capitalism, but rather, convincing us all that the current form of capitalism is the only conceivable economic system, so its flaws are irrelevant. As a result, we're all sitting around dumbfounded as the whole apparatus falls apart.

What we've learned now is that the economic crisis of the 1970s never really went away. It was fobbed off by cheap credit at home and massive plunder abroad ? the latter, in the name of the "third world debt crisis". But the global south fought back. The "alter-globalisation movement", was in the end, successful: the IMF has been driven out of East Asia and Latin America, just as it is now being driven from the Middle East. As a result, the debt crisis has come home to Europe and North America, replete with the exact same approach: declare a financial crisis, appoint supposedly neutral technocrats to manage it, and then engage in an orgy of plunder in the name of "austerity".

The form of resistance that has emerged looks remarkably similar to the old global justice movement, too: we see the rejection of old-fashioned party politics, the same embrace of radical diversity, the same emphasis on inventing new forms of democracy from below. What's different is largely the target: where in 2000, it was directed at the power of unprecedented new planetary bureaucracies (the WTO, IMF, World Bank, Nafta), institutions with no democratic accountability, which existed only to serve the interests of transnational capital; now, it is at the entire political classes of countries like Greece, Spain and, now, the US ? for exactly the same reason. This is why protesters are often hesitant even to issue formal demands, since that might imply recognising the legitimacy of the politicians against whom they are ranged.

When the history is finally written, though, it's likely all of this tumult ? beginning with the Arab Spring ? will be remembered as the opening salvo in a wave of negotiations over the dissolution of the American Empire. Thirty years of relentless prioritising of propaganda over substance, and snuffing out anything that might look like a political basis for opposition, might make the prospects for the young protesters look bleak; and it's clear that the rich are determined to seize as large a share of the spoils as remain, tossing a whole generation of young people to the wolves in order to do so. But history is not on their side.

We might do well to consider the collapse of the European colonial empires. It certainly did not lead to the rich successfully grabbing all the cookies, but to the creation of the modern welfare state. We don't know precisely what will come out of this round. But if the occupiers finally manage to break the 30-year stranglehold that has been placed on the human imagination, as in those first weeks after September 2008, everything will once again be on the table ? and the occupiers of Wall Street and other cities around the US will have done us the greatest favour anyone possibly can.

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/sep/25/occupy-wall-street-protest

aliceliddell · 04/10/2011 10:53

ttosca be careful on that Cif, there! You may need to bleach your eyes.
glasnost Morning Star (for which I can find no relevant link) says NY has spread to Federal Reserve buildings in LA, Chicago, Boston & Columbus, several smaller places in US and Toronto. The NY lot have started printing The Occupy Wall Street Journal.Smile

glasnost · 04/10/2011 13:20

Wicked! Follow it on twitter, alice. #OccupyWallStreet.

Agree totally re. ttosca's perhaps at times misguided overdependency on CiF. The Guardian isn't all that and on wikileaks has been positively repressive and dodgy. When I can be bothered (!) will seek out an extract from a book that debunks the whole "progressive" press myth. The Guardian has actually stifled alot of independent, truly left, radical voices.

glasnost · 04/10/2011 13:23

Check out this for real reportage and insight.

[èwww.truth-out.org/reign-one-percenters/1317665855]]

SpringHeeledJack · 04/10/2011 13:32

marking place

will read properly/links later on

SpringHeeledJack · 04/10/2011 13:33

[definitely NOT working out of Milbank emoticon]

Grin
sakura · 04/10/2011 13:42

I like Michael Moore a lot, but I'm not buying what he's selling because he doesn't mention women on that list of his. How can I take someone seriously if they don't mention women in a social protest.
They don't mention porn and prostitution. They're ignoring the economically, sexually, reproductively exploited class. He mentions animals, but doesn't mention women.
Did you know that today some movies carry a disclaimer:
"no animals were hurt during the making of this film"

I hope I live to see the day when porn movies will carry a disclaimer:
"no women were hurt during the making of this film"

It is beyond me.

sakura · 04/10/2011 13:45

honestly, any women who put their energies into supporting this are wasting their time.
We are not witnessing a revolution at all. We're witnessing one group of men being forced to pass the batton to another group of men

Same old same old.

For women, nothing changes

glasnost · 04/10/2011 13:47

Sorry about that shite link before.

www.truth-out.org/reign-one-percenters/1317665855

aliceliddell · 04/10/2011 13:48

sakura it's a hell of a baton, that capitalism. If anyone believes you can have socialism without feminism, they've misdefined 'socialism'

sakura · 04/10/2011 13:51

well I agree aliceliddel, but it would have to be women-defined socialism. Not male-defined socialism.
Russian men held out the carrot to when they wanted to yoke their strength, just as men always do in their "revolutions", then they snatched it back as soon as they'd got what they wanted. Communist Russia was as patriarchal as the Tzar's time.

To women, if patriarchy persists it hardly makes any difference at all who is in power.

sakura · 04/10/2011 13:52

held out the carrot to women

glasnost · 04/10/2011 13:52

sakura.....the group I'm directly involved in puts women's rights right at the forefront of the protest and links in our oppression to the econominc system. The NY lot were mostly young women at the helm seemed to me espesh the estimable Victoria.

sakura · 04/10/2011 13:55

hi glasnost (great name).
I'm a bit out of the loop but what you're saying sounds interesting. What is NY? Do you have any links?

glasnost · 04/10/2011 14:00

occupywallst.org

Just google it. Loadsa links now they've started arresting children.

aliceliddell · 04/10/2011 14:13

sakura Russia was improved for women (education, divorce, birth control etc) from revolution - Stalin (well, generally a bit), but Uncle Joe didn't do anyone any favours, least of all women. A system that relies on loads of unpaid work being done behind closed doors in our 'private' life isn't going to be good for women. Now all we need to do is get another system...This may take a while

aliceliddell · 04/10/2011 14:15

Arresting children is always good for the publicity shots. I've explained this to dd but she's just so selfish.

chandellina · 04/10/2011 15:02

i see this as a motley assortment of anti-capitalist and anti-government types who aren't even sure who is responsible - if anyone - for the things they don't like. you can't just say: we don't like bankers because we don't like debt. Tell that to your mum and dad who were able to buy a house and pay for your college solely because they were advanced credit. Funny how credit is a wonderful thing when it's microfinancing women's crafts businesses in India, but terrible when it's applied to developed households and governments.

aliceliddell · 04/10/2011 15:38

chandellina Of course! Naturally, we shouldn't criticise anything we ever benefitted from. All mould is good because I had penicillin once. Hmm

SephreniaRidesABroomstick · 04/10/2011 16:00

@Alice and DD not co-operating Grin

glasnost (agree with loving the name, we just need a perestroika now Wink ) - How would/could women's rights be brought to the forefront of the Occupy Together movement?

I mean, it appears to be largely about having a go at the people that screwed up the economies and demanding that they pay for messing up so badly, but I don't know that it would be that easy to point out that women suffer just as much as men while this mess gets sorted out.

It seems that people are more interested in making Wall Street et al, accountable for what they've done, than in making sure that women get as big a voice as the men. Do you have any links you can point me to to see how that's being tackled please?

OP posts:
chandellina · 04/10/2011 16:00

this isn't mould - this is a mainstay of modern life that people are now in the streets protesting (after calling in their pizza order on their credit card).
not that the group even has any clear aim or agenda in particular - they've rolled in agriculture, pharmaceuticals, oil and a bunch of other things into their nonsensical message.