so are you going to bother to vote on the electoral reform referendum?

[easternstar]

Or not?

To be honest I don't think either AV or first past the post is the best method.

When I did my government and politics A-level donkey's years ago I always thought that the fairest method was to have larger constituencies and make up the difference with a party list system based on percentages.

Not at all. I understand exactly why they use the term progressive and why they sell that to the public. Are you a progressive? Are they just splitters? Are you the real progressive?

Ah! It's an attempt at irony. I see.

triska, didn't you watch the New labour conference. It is their slogan "building a progressive future". It is real, they use it all the time. It's BS, but it's not irony.

And yet, what can you expect from 'progressives'.

I meant that your use of it was an attempt at irony, claig, in that I now understand that you were adopting a sardonic tone to convey your disagreement with the concept of the Labour party being progressive. Previously I had been completely baffled, so thank you for explaining.

Progressive: making progress towards better conditions.

By this definition, I hope that all parties would be trying to convince us they are progressive.

Example of usage:

AV is a progressive improvement in our voting system.

I expect that they all call each splitters and argue about who is the real Progressive Popular Front. The fringes want to keep the hallowed term progressive for themselves, but the splitters use it on all their publicity and in their broadcasts and the general public take note of what the splitters, New Labour say, not of what the fringe Progressive People's Front say.

sorry I misunderstood you triska. Yes you are right.

HHLimbo, you are right, no party wants to be outflanked and not be thought of as progressive, because the opposite of progressive is regressive, which is how New Labour wants to paint the Tories. So Cameron says he is progressive and Nick Clegg is even more progressive, but Miliband has his progressive slogans everywhere, because he wants to be the true progressive in the public consciousness. But it is all BS, it is the new motherhood and apple pie. They say they are progressive even when they wage war. Progressive is a magic potion, it absolves them of all blame.

It's not just the Labour party that has 'strongholds'. I doubt very much that AV will mean we don't get a Tory round here - it's where the neighbouring Tory MP fled in '97 because he knew he'd lose in the nearest town but be safe for life here.

As it goes, he's not a bad stick, certainly makes the effort to be in touch with constituents and take up their problems despite being in a position where he never actually needs to turn up in order to keep his seat.

The assertion that calling oneself 'progressive' is a vote-winner doesn't mean that there is no such thing as 'progressive' politics, which means more than simply 'change' towards 'progress'.

'Progressive' politics, in the second half of the 20th Century, has come to mean policies which are socially liberal, along with a progressive (in the technical sense) tax policies, and a general idea of 'fairness' and 'equality' (regardless of race, gender, background, etc.).

The fact that parties need to label themselves 'Progressive' only shows how far politics has come, and these things are expected of them.

That doesn't make New Labour 'progressive'. It just means they use this label to win votes. Nor does it mean that the term 'progressive' is without meaning. It just means they use this label to win votes.

Hope this helps.

Oh jeez progressive refers to a method of taxation that increases the amount of tax you pay as your wealth (or income or both) increases - the opposite, where poorer people pay a higher rate of tax is regressive. Libdem, Labour, Greens are all in favour of progressive taxation - the Conservatives when in coalition with Libdems are grudgingly so, but there are still plenty of regressive taxes in the recent budget, (not to mention the continuing let-offs for businesses and high tax payers if they refuse to pay or manoevre (some of the tax let-offs for big businesses are refusals in order to negotiate) Cutting corporation tax is regressive.

ttosca, I agree that they use the term to fool the public. I think the term is essentially a polarising term used as propaganda including by, sorry, the Marxists. Because they can then claim that their opponents are regressive. Hitler was a socialist and also carried out some progressive policies which were ahead of their time, such as introducing paid holidays etc.

AV is described as progressive. I bet that every single policy that Labour carry out is described as progressive by them, no matter what it is, even if it is Caroline Flint's message to the unemployed "work or lose your homes". I doubt that Labour would call anything they do regressive.

I agree that progressive is used for manly left of centre policies which give more rights to workers etc., but the term has expanded in use to now veer towards party propaganda, which is how it is used by all parties.

I tend to see it as a propaganda term now more than a real political term, which is where I disagree with your view. I think Cameron also uses it as a propaganda term, which is why its original meaning is being supplanted.

Missing, I agree. That is one use of the term, but it has now become a political hydra and is used for all sorts of purposes, quite often propaganda.

"Hitler was a socialist". I see claig. Oh dear. Gonna be one of those mischief making nights again for you is it?

Out of curiosity. How old are you? If you start banging on about Blair being a socialist then I'm gonna come over there and have a word.

Using Latin/old french doesn't make you more cleverer you know, vox populeii and all that..

I think Osborne described the budget as "progressive". Soon we will be told teh cuts are progressive. There is nothing that can't be glossed over with a progressive paintbrush.

Claig a troll?

AV gives way too much power to the third most popular party and it gives the electorate less power.

I am in my forties. I am anti-violence glasnost because I am not a progressive. I don't think Blair was a socialist, I think he is often referred to as Tory Blair.

No not a troll. Just mischievous. And a tad repetitive. Don't say autistic though ttosca.

Yes I disagree with Karl Marx so I am a troll.

Do you think Hitler would have liked AV? Adolf is his first name and V is in the middle of Eva Braun's name - perhaps that's the link! Say yes to AV and ze furher will rise from his grave and launch ARMAGEDDON - no wonder the christian vote is behind AV. Yay the rapture.... :)

Yes definitely a troll. I'm quite sure some people have been reported to MNHQ for voting Tory.