so are you going to bother to vote on the electoral reform referendum?

[easternstar]

Or not?

To be honest I don't think either AV or first past the post is the best method.

When I did my government and politics A-level donkey's years ago I always thought that the fairest method was to have larger constituencies and make up the difference with a party list system based on percentages.

But with FPTP the first choice is an artificial first choice. You have to pick that one as the best of a bad lot. It is no use picking a smaller party that you might really want, because they have no hope of winning. FPTP is all about tactical voting, doing your best to keep the progressives out. If you prefer LibDems to Tories you can't risk voying LibDem in a Tory safe seat in case the progressives sneak in. With AV you can vote for whom you really want.

That is why the LibDems are right to think that they have been hard done by. Many people would prefer to vote for them but daren't risk it because of the danger of the progressives making a late spurt.

Those safe seats will no longer be safe seats under AV. The progressives won't be able to count on 50% anymore. Then we will see what the people really want. People have been forced to choose between the big two, under AV their game is up. That is why the big parties don't like it.

I will definitely vote. I haven't yet decided which way to vote. I like the idea that everyone's vote will count (pro AV) ... but on the other hand I'm not a fan of weak government ... but then again I'm not a fan of overly strong, unchecked government either. Heck.

Besides my nostrils haven't de-flared since the Con Lib-Dem coalition was formed in May.

Also voter turnout will increase as people who have given up come back into politics and start voting for parties they really want. That is why the results will be unpredictable. The spin meisters will be spinning like windmills but they won't be able to count on saftey anymore.

Their computers will crash trying to work out all teh permutations, opinion polls will have to ask people's third choice. Life won't be simple anymore. It won't be a done deal, they'll have to keep it real (and that won't come easy).

There'll be no more more luvverly jubberly, they won't be cracking open the bubbly. They'll be sweating and fretting and some will AV be regretting.

Yes I'm voting, and voting Yes.

Australia has had it since 1918 and has had fewer changes of government than the UK in that time, so I don't believe it will lead to instability.

However it may lead to blunt, plain-speaking politicians .

Hee hee, is that a rap or a poem claig?

HHLimbo, it's just the plain truth. Vote AV, vote democrac-y

you could put it on youtube

How many people know their candidate or have visited the surgery? It is a miniscule amount of the voters. I have switched votes many a time, and have sometimes even walked out of the polling station and regretted what I did in voting LibDem, because I thought I may have given the progressives a chance. The vote sthat tehy get are not a rel reflection of national sentiment. A real reflection can only be obtained by PR where everybody's vote counts.

Claig, you could argue that AV will let you express your views better, because you will be able to show the parties that you support, and the order you support them in.

I also support more than one party, and would like to show this in my voting - smaller parties will get more accurate feedback on their level of support.

Who are the "progressives" you keep mentioning, claig? Do you live outside the UK?

Agree entirely, HHLimbo. You have made an excellent case for AV throughout this thread. It's about democracy and giving the people a voice. Yes it is messy, but so is real life and democracy is too important to be cleansed and sanitised, simplified for the benefit of the politicos.

I live in the UK and have been subjected to teh barrage of progressive propaganda. You must live outside of the UK if you haven't seen the progressives selling their wares.

www.labour.org.uk/help-shape-britains-progressive-future

www.labour.org.uk/seizing-this-progressive-moment-peter-mandelson-speech,2010-04-07

www.labourlist.org/becoming-the-standard-bearer-of-britains-progressive-majority

Progressive is the new term that they use as camouflage.

Haha - Labour are the 'progressives', see?

This is the same Labour which deregulated the banking sector and caused the financial crisis - because unchecked corporate power is what 'progressives' do. ;)

Exactly, progressive is a nice sounding term which they hope will erase the memory of all that they did. It is spin par excellence, but what else can we expect from the progressives?

Exactly, progressive is a nice sounding term which they hope will erase the memory of all that they did. It is spin par excellence, but what else can we expect from the progressives?

That doesn't make any sense. First you imply that they're just misappropriating the term 'progressive' to coverup their reactionary policies, and then you imply that they are, indeed, progressives.

You need to make up your mind.

New Labour never were progressive. From the very beginning, they favoured free-market economics, deregulation, authoritarian social policies and policing, and sucking up to the very rich.

Progressive is BS, that is why they have appropriated the term. They are pseudo progressives and yes they are the progressives, since it is just a spin term, used to fool the public. Marxists are also progressives, but so too was Adolf Hitler. But the major force in progressive politics is them and not the Marxists.

You're a very confused individual, claig.