Police pay protesters may take to streets

[breadandbutterfly]

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8369874/Police-pay-protesters-may-take-to-streets.html

Who's hoping they get kettled?

Of course the Police Service will have to have to some cuts, the same as every part of our lives at the moment. But what does make me mad, it's always 'the worker bees' that get hit.

The Chief Constable of our area earns over £150,000 a year plus pensions and other bits and bobs, the Deputy Chief Constable is I believe on about £120,000, then there's the Assistant Chief Constable, then Chief Inspectors, Chief Superintendents all earning very large salaries. How about looking at them? ACPO are always very vocal but they forget they were once rank and file officers but now they're in their high powered, desk jobs it's 'I'm alright jack'

But then that's very indicitive of the whole scenario at the moment - MP's telling us how we all have to feel the pain and we're all in this together, so isn't it about time they led by example.

Today we have the news that Public Sector pensions have to be overhauled - again, of course they do, but who feels the pain? It's certainly not the 'Chief Executives' with their telephone number salaries, or the 'mamagers' in their extremely well paid jobs with titles that nobody understands (who let's face it are one of the reasons the public sector is now over bloated) - no it's the hard working nurses, police officers, firefighters, bin men, cleaners etc. etc. All hard working individuals doing the jobs we don't want to do.

I work in the Private Sector and my husband is a copper, so I guess I do see it from both sides and I can tell you that I'd love to see this 'gravy train' that I'm supposed to be hitching along on! Hubby earns a decent, fair salary and I'm certainly not about to start pleading poverty but we do not receive the perks the Daily Mail like to throw about. He works damned hard and deals with things that I wished to god he had no involvement in - we have no family life and 'the job' always comes first. These aren't whinges, just the way things are.

Hmm anyway I'll get off my soapbox now after a parting shot of 'Vivre le Revolution'

breadandbutterfly...was every police officer in the country there in london attacking you? i dont think so!

is it ever right to judge a whole group of people on the actions of a few..I dont believe so. we have long since established that police officers who do so should not be police officers and ironically exactly the point you are making!

I am Partner of the above and yes i am a copper. i think you might find that if you got to know a few of us you'd realise the vast majority do not support the use of excessive force. use of force is a necessity of the job (hopefully as rarely as possible tbh)The fact that officers do use it excessively is never acceptable but a reality because you have human beings in the uniform. Human beings who make mistakes and behave, believe it or not, like humans. Not reacting in that way is where the difficulty in the job falls. Human beings behave violently in volatile situations in the same way they get sad when exposed to death and suffering and angry when faced with injustice.

This situation isnt about the unforgivable actions of the few but the many who face these challenges everyday and are not allowed to show any emotion often to the detriment of their own well being. That is why policing is different and why asking people to accept these challenges without acknowledgement of the uniqueness of the role will result in a drop in standards. if you want individuals of the right quality in the police then you need to pay for it. employment of more people who cant separate themselves from the situation they are in and end up treating people the way you were treated at the protests will be the result of a drop in pay.

we are not famed for our intelligence in the first place but if you pay peanuts you get monkeys

Im sorry you were treated in that way..but please do not go down the conspiracy route, if you think we all sit around plotting how we can abuse the general public on behalf of the government then please pop round for coffee and doughnuts and hear what we really think!, i dare say our personal opinions wouldnt be wildly different from your own

I do agree that the police historically have tended to win their battles with governments.

There have apparently had some very generous perks; which I knew little about until recently.

And: Are the elected police Commisioners still on the agenda (I wouudike to see how that pans out/)

I would like to see a more open police force; but I get on ok with our local lads and lasses...And I like the PCSOs I have spoken to.

Hi Bread... Yeah, the police at the London demos showed themelves (or a big proportion of them did) in a very bad light. Until I started trying to do my bit to support the students, I didn't give much thought to the police, except I understood they were very cushily treated in pay and pension. Now I see how many of them are arrogant, bullying, obnoxious individuals. They need a good weeding out. It's a shame that the decent ones are so overshadowed by the many very apparent bastards in their midst.
The recent Northampton story is a case in point - that lazy, shiftless incompetent pair are to keep their jobs with just a 'final warning' - which will be erased if they keep their noses clean for eighteen months.
There is an urgent need for a thorough sorting out of our police force - they're a mess, and that's a serious issue.

crikey did we have a visit from Inspector Gadget and the lovely Debbie on Friday?

H of iamadoctor

sorry did i rant a little?

I know im defending "the police" but actually I get as angry with the unprofessional police officers as anyone else.Im still a member of the public as well as a police officer.

Genuinely they are in the minority, as with any group the bad ones stand out and make the whole group look bad.

As for the numerous and generous perks. honestly honestly honestly please please believe me they are nothing like what the media has made them out to be, usual media hype. I get my basic pay, my pension is good but its not a perk its paid for by me out of my pay and thats it. no overtime, no huge amounts of leave, no bonuses, no expenses, no moats for the garden or second homes, nothing.

excuse the vulgarity of discussing wages, terribly un-british i know but...I have served 6 years in the police and get paid 29k, it is very good money and i try to reflect that in how hard i work as do most.

what is the right wage for a police officer?

Until the wholesale entrapment of demonstrators stops, the police will continue to look bad - even the (I imagine) decent majority. Because until the kettling stops, all those police who 'are only obeying orders' - are working against democracy.
This HAS actually filtered through to parliamentarians - parliamentary motion EDN1257 is in opposition to indiscriminate kettling; my (LibDem) MP has signed it and says '... I do oppose indiscriminate kettling which when applied in such a heavy-handed way does infringe the right to protest.'
I suspect the police get a skewed view of humanity because they do deal with a lot of villains. Is it really necessary to teach them that students are anything but villains - they are bright young people of whom they should be proud and whose political expression they have no business to suppress.

About the question, 'what is the right wage for a police officer?' - well, the national average wage is about £24,000 a year I think, so something approaching that would be fair for people who have been in the police for a few years. Most police are not very talented, not specially dedicated, with little interest in, or understanding of, customer service - or that's the impression I get. It doesn't seem to me they deserve the pay of, say, teachers.

The national average wage takes into account the high earners as well as people on breadline wages - so if you're earning the national average, then you're doing fine.

I take great exception to dotnet's perception that most police are not talented or dedicated. You want to come and work where I work and have dealt with what I have had to deal with on a daily basis.If you weren't dedicated you couldn't do the job in the first place. I am afraid that customer service is being taken very seriously indeed to the point of surveys being carried out by external companies. Police forces are measured on customer satisfaction as part of performance targets.

It also affects your whole life when you join. If you get introduced to people for the first time they immediately have a percetpion of you based on previous experiences.The amount of vitriol you have to put up with in your personal life is pretty shite. Also for every 10 good experiences people generally remember the one bad experience they have had when dealing with the police. The distinction between work life and personal life becomes blurred and if an incident occurs whilst off duty you are expected to deal with it.

Policing of public order situations is but a tiny part of the role of a police officer's role.Why shouldn't police officers have the right to strike? Kettling is a tactic which has become a recognised tactic which protestors are getting round anyway with the use of technology. No one denies anyone the right to strike - the balance is about keeping law and order.

Police officers aren't governed by employment law by the way. The issue about Bank Holidays with double time and a day off isn't normally an issue. Usually only staff who would be working anyway work the bank holiday so they get double time. If due to staff shortages an officer has to work bank holiday then yes they are owed a day off too. However this is not normal practice. Pensions - well I pay 11% of my pay in pension which is a fair old chunk, hence my decent pension at the end. The Daily Mail reporting of benefits and perks is incorrectly reported but hey I am off to my holiday home in the Maldives tomorrow

ok thank you for your opinion.

id actually quite like to police a large protest and mingle with the crowd. i think engagement with people is far better and more human way to police.

maybe i wont have my pay cut and ill get that new Jag from the chief as a bonus this year you never know

(I thought this was you for a moment)

The sensible thing for all police officers who are not happy with their pay-cuts, or not happy with the cuts to other public services, is to come along to the demo on 26th March. I think it would be brilliant to have a police contingent on the march, it might stop some of the out-of-order behaviour from those policing the march.

I dearesay police aren't supposed to demonstrate, but they have done it before.

I will have my increments stopped which basically means the agreement i made when i signed on the line will not be kept. these increments are not nice little bonuses they stop after 10 years and quite rightly reflect the level of experience you have. experience is very important in policing, pay should reflect that and the increments are part of the basic pay package. i also signed up for a pension which now i will have to pay more into and get less out of. i cannot strike, i cannot belong to a political party and even while typing this i worry who might find out...how does that stand up to human rights?

i feel i work hard and i am dedicated. many of my colleagues are graduates and i am ex forces so the argument about not respecting students and other public services is frankly stupid.

firstly..."ketteling" and policing protests is a tiny part of our work the fact that some people seem to focus on it is a clear indication that they havnt got a clue what really goes on and simply form opinions on what the tabloids have said that morning and on that note i havnt heard seen or read one person complaining about police tactics whos prepared to offer and alternative way for us to do it.

secondly...if you think we are all so bad walk a mile in our shoes. when we turn up late to deal with the fact that your neighbour parks in such a way they block your sunlight and you want us to sort it even though you havnt actually tried to solve it yourself or even speak to them dont be surprised if we are a little unimpressed and short with you weve probably just cut short a burglary report in order to keep the appointment with you so we dont get complained about and our focus on customer service questioned.

oh and btw "i left my car unlocked a month ago and my laptop, satnav, ipad, iphone, ipod and dog got stolen. i reported it to the police a week after it happened and they STILL havnt caught the thief and locked him up for twenty years" isnt a valid complaint about how poorly we do our jobs. if you think thats poor customer service take your custom elsewhere...report it to the AA and see how much notice they take

hmmpf :o

rightio

yes that certainly hit the right note there hellodave, us ladies are most impressed

I particularly sympathised with your reaction to all us sillybillies asking for the stars " "i left my car unlocked a month ago and my laptop, satnav, ipad, iphone, ipod and dog got stolen. i reported it to the police a week after it happened and they STILL havnt caught the thief and locked him up for twenty years" because, yes, that's certainly the way all us members of the public think

well done for putting us straight

sorry if you were offended by me suggesting that every member of the public is exactly the same moaning sillybillie...that is clearly rubbish and not what i really think. i am "a member of the public" afterall and not some weird alternative human race.

i was making a point, a police officer behaving in the way i suggested above is not acceptable (fact) but labeling all police officers as corrupt, incompetent, rude, bullies because of the actions of the few is fair? and therefore all should take a pay cut?

not cool...double standards i believe (catinthehat thats not aimed at you specifically just a general comment)

call me a twat for having an opinion if you like, i have been called worse.

right, that sounds a bit more measured

I can't be bothered with hyperbole

"i also signed up for a pension which now i will have to pay more into and get less out of."
you'll find this applies to a lot of non public sector wrokers I'm afraid. THere's not a huges amount of mileage in that, just the odd raised eyebrow and "welcome to the real world, chum"

" i cannot belong to a political party "

that surprises me - I thought the BNP not allowed, but everything else fine.

..continued, sorry
" i cannot strike"
hmm but you can work to contract, lots of scope there?

ok..yes i realise the pension thing but one thing i ask you to consider is there are pressures put on you in policing that are unique. i served in the forces and i am not easily shocked or put down by being given a shitty deal. on my first day as an independant police officer (theres a small tutorship period after training) i dealt with a 13 yr old girl who was/had been groomed. a few days later i told a mum her teenage son had killed himself, a few days after that sat comforting an 80 tr old woman who had been attacked in her own home. this wide range of things continue throughout ive done six years now and would like to stay until retirment in 25ish years time. these things are not easy to deal with, im not complaining, i do these things gladly but the pay and pension that was there when i signed up balanced the "unique" aspects out.

i apologised for offending you please dont patronise me with "welcome to the real world chum" ive done plenty of living and lived a less sheltered life than most.

as for the political party thing yes i can "belong" to one in name. but as for taking any political action and being proactive which is why most join..forget it.

what do you mean by work to contract? im not being thick(honest) ill assume you mean what i know as work yo rule ie work to my contracted hours, dont step outside my role profile make things difficult for the establishment. yes. but its not the establishment that suffers and i personally couldnt do that. the only way i have ever got anything done as a police officer is to work longer than i was supposed to, do things that others may have said "thats not my responsibility" and do more than i need to...it would be the victims and the public that would suffer if i said "sorry mrs miggins i know whats happened is tragic but its a quater to five and im off in fifteen minutes, another officer may be with you shortly." it may make a point to the govt when all the complaints come in but i literally wouldnt sleep knowing id treated someone like that to prove a point.

"the only way i have ever got anything done as a police officer is to work longer than i was supposed to"

yes that was what I was referring to

don't know if you read any of the police blogs check out the comments by pcsouthwest at 11.46 on this

also "welcome to the real world, chum" was meant to be said with a gloomy voice not a patronising one

iamadoctor I agree with you that uniformed police mingling in a demonstration would be a much better way of policing a crowd. A lot of damage to public perception has been done already, which will be hard to undo - thousands of young students now despise the police, having seen with their own eyes their bullying and dangerous tactics in 'kettles'. My own dd had the terrifying experience of being forced into a crush, yelled at to 'move back - move back' as the line of police moved forward even though there was no space to move back to. She saw a boy's finger broken by a police baton, too, and her group of kids actually got down on their knees while being threatened by police. A LOT of the bad stuff which happened hasn't been reported. Sickening stuff. So it's no good SharonGless dismissing it as 'kettling is a tactic which has become a recognised tactic' - that's just not good enough, not good enough at all.

I'm sure you're right, hellodave about the stressfulness of some of your work. It would certainly give me sleepless nights if I was working to help traffiked women, for instance, and breaking the news about someone's death in a traffic accident is dreadful work as well. When my aunt was visited by police to tell her about her own husband having died, she was helped a lot by the kindness shown by the police who visited her.

But it's still obvious there is a hell of a lot of dross in the police force, and too much (ignorant) arrogance as well. Those students had it spot-on in (I think) the last demo, waving their huge banner at the police which read 'We are NOT your slaves'.

Back on the police pay thing ...maybe beat police should be comparable with paramedics. Paramedics do an absolutely fantastic job which, like the police's, is often stressful. I wonder how their respective wage rates compare one with another.

In the two or three demos I went on when I was a student in the 1970s, the demonstrators weren't forced into police traps - the police lined the route of the march. That was OK. Today's students are no different from how we were, except that forcing people into false imprisonment, which is what kettling is, makes some of them lash out in anger and behave worse than they otherwise would.

Lastly, HelloDave I only focus on kettling because that's virtually all the experience I've had of how the police work. And that aspect of what they do, ain't good.

checked the comments..not sure what point your trying to make. pcsouthwest is right...

sorry not being difficult just not sure what your trying to say

you were asking what I meant by 'work to contract' and said you would not be happy with clocking off and leaving customers to it.
the commenter (and others subsequently) seemed to have a load of methods which would presumably produce the same effect as a strike
now whether or not you would go that route is another matter, sounds as if you would not be too happy

dotnet - you have only had one experience of how the police work? How then can you comment on one tiny aspect which is what both I and hellodave have alluded to. I have 17 years service and have dealt with many harrowing incidents which I have no desire to recount just to prove that I am worth my pay. Paramedics do do a fantastic job but I don't see how you can compare the two.

The other issue I have with your post is that it is obvious there is a hell of a lot of dross - on what do you base this? Examples of kettling in the protests over the last few months?

Unfortunately "clocking off" and "working to rule" can also be disciplinary offences. The police regulations mean that if the extingencies of the service demand they can keep you on duty and also return you to duty at any time. Plus from a moral point of view if you had a victim of rape who you were dealing with and due to clock off in 10 minutes I know I couldn't live with myself to walk out of the door, nor could any of my colleagues. At the end of the day most officers joined the police to make a difference and to help people.