Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Politics

Posh and Posher: Why Public School Boys Run Britain

331 replies

TapselteerieO · 27/01/2011 14:22

Did anyone see this?

I have just watched it and thought there might be a thread here about it. Sadly I am not surprised that it happens but I am still surprised by the statistics.

(Going to get dc from school so might not be on here until later.)

OP posts:
hogsback · 28/01/2011 08:29

Claig: a Harvard Summa Cum Laude will be treated on her merits and her secondary education will, rightly, be deemed an irrelevance. In the UK a Cambridge double first's secondary education will still be of importance if he is planning on entering the media, politics or the law. In these areas, a public school education is still an advantage and I believe that we do the country a disservice by perpetuating the system of privilidge that goes with it.

As a disclaimer I went to public school myself and I loathe the fact that I am still asked at the age of 40 where I went to school. I usually answer by giving the name of my university and grad school as the Americans do.

claig · 28/01/2011 08:56

I agree with you. I want a meritocratic society. That's what Thatcher and Andrew Neil want. I want ordinary children to be able to go to top quality grammar schools (just like Harold Wilson and Margaret Thatcher did in the past). I want our state schools to be as good as our public schools.

In the modern competitive world we need all of our talent to be developed to the maximum.

jackstarb · 28/01/2011 08:59

Hogs - you might be right about the upper tiers of law and the media (hopefully not the GuardianSmile).

But surely the point Andrew Neil made was that for 33 years our country had state educated Prime Ministers.

In fact, it seemed that the era of the public school prime minister was gone.

As he says in the programme - we had a meritocracy (of sorts) and we lost it. How and why did the public schools regain their influence?

Bumpsadaisie · 28/01/2011 10:05

Jacks

The Guardian is the preserve of Oxbridge lefties, I am afraid!

Bumps

Bumpsadaisie · 28/01/2011 10:11

Hogs

Not sure you are totally right about the law - plenty of Oxbridge comprehensive school children (such as myself) at my old magic circle firm.

Personally I think Oxbridge is the feeder into the elite - and of course you have a much better chance of getting there from a public school. But there are plenty of state school children at Oxbridge too, and it is a path into the elite for them, because they make friends with all the public school types and get in on the connections.

Eg my BF at college went to a very famous girls school. We both wanted to do law. I did work experience with their family friend who was a judge. When I applied to said magic circle firm, I was interviewed by another family friend of theirs who was a partner, and got accepted. I don't know to this day whether BFs mother had a little word with the interviewer but it is possible that she did.

Not that I am saying this way of doing this is desirable, but I do think once state school kids are at Oxbridge, the playing field levels out a bit. Of course your chances of making it into Oxbridge in the first place are better if you are from a public school, not least because public schools educate children to be ambitious, driven, and to expect a lot of themselves.

jackstarb · 28/01/2011 11:09

Bumps - I think I was being a tad ironic about the Guardian Wink.

Your Oxbridge point is interesting, and it reinforces what Andrew Neil was arguing: If state schools could give a larger number of children the level of academic education they need to get into Oxbridge (and other RG universities) - they we would regain the meritocracy we appear to have lost.

rabbitstew · 28/01/2011 11:30

I find it interesting that no-one is questioning what makes a "good education." It used to be accepted that you must have A-level Latin to get into Oxford or Cambridge, until relatively recently (into the 1980s). Was this requirement dropped merely because it was unfair for many state school applicants, or because it was also grudgingly accepted that it did not actually boost your intelligence or prove your academic ability as much as previously supposed? Of course, Latin has been used through the centuries in all sorts of fields, so some knowledge of basic Latin is useful on that basis in many areas of study, but an A-level in it?.... I read Jurisprudence and didn't find a lack of A-level Latin to be a handicap... However, it used to be happily accepted as a requirement for all entrance candidates, and Grammar schools happily continued the traditional subjects, because studying the traditional subjects is the traditional route through to the positions of power - because that's the way it's always been done. It seems to be more or less assumed that by having studied the traditional academic subjects, you have automatically shown greater potential for leadership and management, without the need for starting from the bottom and working your way up in a company. Is this the case, or have you simply shown that you can jump through the arbitrary hoops that history has set up for you?

Isn't the whole system skewed towards favouring one type of education over any other if you want to have any power and influence in this country? And, surprise, surprise, isn't the favoured education the one that apes the education provided by the country's public schools? Meanwhile, of course, whilst passing on the message that the hoi polloi need to learn particular subjects to get on in the world, the real elite, from the proper public schools, not the sad private school and state school impersonations, are keeping quiet about the fact that actually, this isn't really enough, because it isn't all about intelligence and ability and jumping through hoops - you also have to know the right people, preferably have lots of pre-existing money, and have an overwhelming sense of personal entitlement if you really want to get to the top. And Grammar school boys always did have a chip on their shoulders, didn't they? You could spot them a mile off, and choose whether or not to accept them, depending on whether they were smarmy and ingratiating enough and passed the Latin test.

Won't our education system always fail for so long as we assume that only the traditional, public-school model of education will bring you any genuine success in life? Doesn't this assumption force all sorts of inappropriate people to attempt to fit that mould and condemn them as inferior if they fail to fit it, or choose to opt for an alternative? If we all went to public schools, where would the useful people come from - you know, the ones who actually clear up our messes, care for our elderly, look after our children when we're out governing the country, grow our food, sanitise our water, fix our leaking pipes, put out our fires, arrest our criminals, etc, etc?????

complimentary · 28/01/2011 12:27

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tristram_Hunt
POSH and POSHER!
You can't get any Posher than the Right Honorable Tristram Hunt! Grin
Tristram Hunt was parachuted into Stoke-on Trent, by the labour Party. No local candidate was put forward, or women.

Tristram has a 'fine pedigree' and can align himself with the working class oik. Tristram is Lord Chesterton's son. Tristram 'Alma Mater' of Trinity College, (one of the most Elite Colleges in the country)was really up against it as PPC, one of the candidates who wasn't chosen had an Open University Degree!

Tristram is an Historian, and well understands the illustrious histories of our council estates. Tristram writes for the Guardian and Observer, is pals with The Marxist, Hobsbawn (whom he interviews) and apparently the Millibands and Hobsbawn, are 'family freinds'.
There are many reasons that the public schoolboy has invaded politics, but the main reason is that the Labour Party does not want the proletariat to enter the hallowed Commons Hall!

The Labour Party represents the working classes? Forget it!Grin

claig · 28/01/2011 12:38

Grin exactamundo

TapselteerieO · 28/01/2011 13:09

No party with any power represents the people, never mind the labour party?

This is not about political parties, because they are all part of the elite, a point which I think was well made by Andrew Neil.

The divide is between the very rich and the rest of us, irrespective of our political leanings.

OP posts:
TapselteerieO · 28/01/2011 13:12

Rabbit I agree, you said it better than I could.

"Meanwhile, of course, whilst passing on the message that the hoi polloi need to learn particular subjects to get on in the world, the real elite, from the proper public schools, not the sad private school and state school impersonations, are keeping quiet about the fact that actually, this isn't really enough, because it isn't all about intelligence and ability and jumping through hoops - you also have to know the right people, preferably have lots of pre-existing money, and have an overwhelming sense of personal entitlement if you really want to get to the top."

OP posts:
BaggedandTagged · 28/01/2011 13:19

"All of the above schools achieved better A level results than Westminster, St Pauls and Eton, so why haven't any of these schools produced a Prime Minister or even any cabinet ministers? It can't be because state schools aren't producing the results."

Because the kids that go to those schools are bright enough to realise that politics is thankless work with crappy hours for not that great money and getting your provate life raked over by Murdoch's attack dogs- there are fairly middling bankers who out earn the PM. Those GS kids all become derivitive traders and corporate litigation lawyers Grin

rabbitstew · 28/01/2011 13:43

ps, claig, no of course Russian oligarchs aren't stupid. They know their new fortunes aren't safe until they've fully bought their way into the international "establishment." They don't give a toss whether their children knowing how to write Latin and knowing the official history of the British Empire is of any genuine educational use or not, they just want to help their children become accepted as part of the world governing elite, and not be seen as common gangsters like their mums and dads. They also want to get as much of their money out of Russia as possible. After all, Communist Russia had no problems whatsoever producing an elite of highly educated, inventive, competitive, intelligent Russians (they were the first in Space...), but the still existing top Moscow schools don't have the same international currency as Eton or Harrow (and are harder to get into).

Wealthy Russians also like the way the truly posh somehow manage to enjoy their vulgarity without being seen to be vulgar - a Russian oligarch's yacht is disgusting, but the top public school's latest state of the art theatre, replacing the decade old previous theatre, is a superb facility.

BaggedandTagged · 28/01/2011 13:59

Oligarhs are basically "people laundering" themselves.

They start off thuggish crims but a few generations through Eton and they're shiny new establishment

BaggedandTagged · 28/01/2011 14:00

.......or should that be old establishment?????

oneglassandpuzzled · 28/01/2011 14:47

' It used to be accepted that you must have A-level Latin to get into Oxford or Cambridge, until relatively recently (into the 1980s).'

It wasn't quite that bad--only O level. And that had stopped by the time I went, in 1982.

oneglassandpuzzled · 28/01/2011 14:49

' It used to be accepted that you must have A-level Latin to get into Oxford or Cambridge, until relatively recently (into the 1980s).'

It wasn't quite that bad--only O level. And that had stopped by the time I went, in 1982.

BaggedandTagged · 28/01/2011 14:50

plus of course, grammar schools all taught latin at O-level anyway so it probably wasn't even an issue before the grammar/ SM system was dismantled in favour of the comprehensive system.

rabbitstew · 28/01/2011 15:16

But why wasn't it an issue that Latin O-level was a requirement?

Heroine · 28/01/2011 15:27

Now you just have to say 'clearly' when you start a sentence that ends in bollocks... :)

complimentary · 28/01/2011 15:27

My DH went to public school. Me, lovely Secondary Modern. I know who had the better education! Not me! That's why my children will go to a public school. Smile

Heroine · 28/01/2011 15:28

clearly everyone in the country is happy with public school people in government (for example!)

claig · 28/01/2011 15:43

rabbitstew, agree with you. That's why they head to Eton and Harrow, some of the most famous establishments in the world.

rabbitstew · 28/01/2011 15:44

Wasn't A-level Latin a requirement for entry onto modern foreign language courses at Oxford in the early '80s? I assumed that was the reason my brother very grumpily attended out-of-school lessons in order to take Latin A-level when this subject clashed with his other options at school. He'd already taken the O-level, so that requirement had already been met. Maybe he was just a glutton for punishment.

rabbitstew · 28/01/2011 15:55

Eton and Harrow still provide the perfect education for young men intent on setting out to rule the Empire. We may not have an empire any more, but the arrogant attitude and certainty of the rectitude of your behaviour (whilst impregnanting the local populace) is still pretty useful. Grin.

Swipe left for the next trending thread