Want your children to be able to go to uni?

[GreatAuntLoretta]

I am really feeling the urge to join the NUS protest against tuition fees on Thursday 9th December. Although my children are both under five, I am really really upset and annoyed to think that if they want to go to university in the future we will be very unlikely to be able to afford to send them. Who knows what the fees will be by then?! Also when my children are a little older I would really like to have the opportunity to retrain and do a degree. That would be completely off the cards. (angry)

Is anyone else with young children thinking of attending? It would be good to stick together with some other parents. A large group of parents will probably be a lot safer than a random woman with a buggy and a toddler in a mass crowd.

Who is with me?

Is there already a family protest group out there?

Xenia - be serious!

This is a huge financial burden (call it a loan, tax what you will) on those of lower middle income and above unless you're enough not to need to a loan to pay in the first place.

The rich will pay the money upfront.
The middle will pay the money with compound interest.
The poorest will pay nothing (but 21k in 2016 is about 16-18k in today's prices according to coalition calculations).

A 'rich' child whose parents don't support them will be able to get a loan just like anyone else. Why is that discriminating against him/her?

I think the plan is to for every student to get the loan. If they want to pay it off early - then they pay a penalty.

In effect it's a 'graduate tax' which the graduate stops paying when the full amount it's paid off.

And, unlike a tax - you can't avoid it by leaving the country.

Jack - no, that's not the case. Only those who need it take out the loan. The rich don't need it bc they can pay up front.

jackstarbright, of course you can avoid it by leaving the country.How are they going to know what/if you're earning if you're abroad?

They're not privy to that information.

Of course it will lead to a huge brain drain.

Plus your your earlier point about the poor getting help with fees - you do realise that only applies to 18,000 students max, don't you?

A tiny drop in the ocean out of the hundreds of thousands of students.

maypole1, you seem to be blissfully unaware that the creative industries are one of this country's big moneyspinners - fashion, music, literature, drama, art - they all bring billions of pounds into the UK economy every year, and are one of the few industries that we are world leaders at, and where we are not threatened by cheaper manufacturing costs etc elsewhere. And unlike the banking sector, they have not neded a massive bail-out, either.

If your family member's literacy is at your levels, that may explain their lack of employment - even artists need to write grammatically correct applications.

Sorry - the LibDems are proposing to disallow upfront payments.

Thinking about it - I'm not sure if it will be included. The attraction of some quick payment into the scheme - might out-way the 'fairness' argument.

No Jack - sorry - they are proposing that if you have taken out the loan that you cannot accelerate your payments without paying an 'early repayment penalty'.

They will not require the rich to take out the loans, see here

This means that the rich will never pay the compound interest payable by all but the poorest.

Like all loans, it's a penalty on not being rich enough to afford something outright.

granted,

"Plus your earlier point about the poor getting help with fees - you do realise that only applies to 18,000 students max, don't you?"

My reaction to the article was slightly different. Only 18000 FSM eligible pupils going to Uni is a a very small number and the article implies that it will actually be an improvement on the current situation.

About 14% of secondary pupils are on FSM. I calculate that 14% of one years intake at Uni is more than 50,000.

That's 30,000 children who get lost on the way!

-.Is there any evidence that the current tuition fees create a significant brain drain? I wonder if an extra £9k - £18k debt will increase it by much?

wasn't me re fsm. There were 45 students at Oxbridge who had been on free school meals. Let's face it is not going to help very many.

Brain drain - yes in Ireland. Also, it's not just the increase in fees it's the way the debt is calculated by using a much more punitive (compound) interest rate. Average student debt now is 20-30k, it will end up at around 80k. The smart lower-middle income English families/kids will be studying in Europe for (almost) nothing. Many will stay there ...

WK2010 - sorry last post was to granted x posted with you.. I agree with you that the LibDem idea to penalise upfront payment of fees probably won't happen.

My point Re: FSM numbers at Uni - is it's a scandal it so small. Maybe it will now grow?

So the Lib Dems have concocted a little bribe to shut us English up - do they have ANY idea when they gaze down from moneybags mansion how few people can qualify for free schools meals? As soon as one parent gets working families tax credit - ie works, the meals benefit stops.

BTW Mr Clegg, if your policy is so excitingly progressive and forward thinking, as you have bleated in the press today, how come the Welsh and Scottish aren't rushing to embrace it?

The cuts in Humanities budgets will affect not just creative and literary practice, but also social sciences - investigations into the effects on single parents of welfare cuts, corruption, institutional racism and the like will be curtailed,while those fab surveys beloved of Steve Wright "85% of people say that when they smile it means they are happy" will flourish because its siunz, innit.

You qualify for fsm if you don't work at all. Don't think this will stop the protests or the backlash against the rise in fees. Pathetic attempt imo.

Apollinare

I'm sure the LibDems know that 14% secondary school children claim FSM. Only a fraction of whom go onto Uni.

If they use a 3 year FSM rule they would catch most deprived children (not sure if that's the plan).

The Welsh are not putting any extra funds into HE - they are just shuffling it around. 'Robbing Peter to pay Paul' as it were.

Is it fair that help is available to the tune of 18K for families who don't work and take alot out of the system but not for single parents that earn their money but have less income. Doesn't sound fair to me.

Riven - In your hypothetical situation - ds2 in his final GCSE year would qualify - as being on FSM 3 years before Uni entry - I think? It's anyone claiming for 1 year in the last 3.

And to be clear I've just suggested the 3 year rule.

They could choose 1 year - which would miss many, or maybe 6 years which would catch most.

Won't know until there's more details.

Can you just clarify something for me. Who exactly do you want to pay for peoples uni funding?

I want the govt ir taxpayers to subsidize university education, as happens here now, as happens in virtually every other civilised country around the world.

Having a well-educated workforce benefits EVERYONE, not just those receiving the education. The alternative is that only the rich get the education, and the poor are put off by the cost.

Tje dayswhen we could compete internationally as an unskilled manufacturing nation are long gone if we're to survive and succeed, we need to compete, like Germany, with high-tech or value-added products,which we need an education to produce. Otherwise, we're simply going to end up reducing our workforce to work on Chinese wages, or face all our work being outsourced.

In the current economic climate, only a fool would be so short-sighted as to stop investing in training our workforce - it's the future of our country.

The new fees will make British universities THE MOST EXPENSIVE PUBLIC UNIVERSITIES IN THE WORLD. Are you aware of that??

Sorry - govt ie taxpayers

jackstarbright - the 18,000 max number doesn't refer to the maximum number of those on FSM who go to university. It refers to the maximum amount of cash in the pot.

So if 200,000 students on FSM want to go to university, they won't get all their fees paid, just a tiny amount, as there simply won't be enough money to go round.

Presumably the govt is hoping fear of the costs will put off enough students that only 18,000 poor ones apply! - there is no evidence that that is the total number who currently apply or get in or who would like to go in future.

I would like to think that we are investing in people to become well educated, high achieving, high earners. However, what puts me off in thinking that the govenment (ir taxpayers) to subsidize university education being a good idea is the fact that so many come out of uni and go on to ordinary jobs. Jobs that they could have just gone into when they left school or jobs where they didn't need a uni education but merely a brain and a bit of hard work.

Then whilst they are in these jobs after spending who knows what on uni, it never gets paid back because they don't earn enough and so it was a big fat waste of money.

Riven - I agree that FSM can be problematic and the older a child the less likely are the parents will claim FSM.

From what I've read in submissions from children's charities to the pupil premium consultation, the vast majority of the most deprived pupils will have been in receipt of FSM at some point in any 6 year period. However - let's see how eligibility for the fee waiver will be measured.

granted - this from Reuters:

"Under the new scheme, any student eligible for free school meals who is accepted for a place at university would have one year's fees paid by the government. "

(My emphasis). Of course as I've just said above - we need to see their definition of FSM eligiblity before we can judge fully.

I don't see why things can't become more like the American system with respect to universities. Why should the government have to fund degree courses?

I know an awful lot of people who only went to university as a rite of passage - they spent a significant amount of time drinking, partying and doing little work. Many are in jobs now that do not require a degree in the first place.

I think there needs to be a radical overhaul of the entire education system. We need to understand that not all young people are suited to university - there needs to be more alternatives such as apprenticeships and other forms of on-the-job training.

Universities should be able to set their own fees - as they do in the United States. I do believe that there should be a lot more giving from those who have graduated to their respective universities, to enable bursaries to be provided for the less wealthy.

I studied at Oxford. I had to take out a student loan. I then did postgraduate study and am now a lawyer. I have to pay back my student loan direct from my salary and also have to pay off bank loans that I took out to cover the cost of living as a single parent whilst studying for a law conversion. I don't begrudge this as I am in a career which I love and which offers good prospects.

American's don't pay as much tax as we do and don't expect the same services.

To the poster who asked who we want to finance HE one simple answer, the government, as has always been the case or a least subsidies in as they do now.

The are saying the help for people on FSM that is what they mean. This evil lot are unlikely to give any concessions to the working poor, no FSM no help!