Want your children to be able to go to uni?

[GreatAuntLoretta]

I am really feeling the urge to join the NUS protest against tuition fees on Thursday 9th December. Although my children are both under five, I am really really upset and annoyed to think that if they want to go to university in the future we will be very unlikely to be able to afford to send them. Who knows what the fees will be by then?! Also when my children are a little older I would really like to have the opportunity to retrain and do a degree. That would be completely off the cards. (angry)

Is anyone else with young children thinking of attending? It would be good to stick together with some other parents. A large group of parents will probably be a lot safer than a random woman with a buggy and a toddler in a mass crowd.

Who is with me?

Is there already a family protest group out there?

but what is the issue with paying for your own education after you get it when your earning over 21k

you have neglected to answer why i should pay for some one studying horse psychology

Well in recessions parents pile their children into so called secure jobs like accoutancy, medicine, dentistry, law and certainly you are more likely to make a living in those than as an artist (although it is much harder to get into university to study those subjects and the person who might have got a first in art may well not get a first in medicine). However that doesn't mean all those taking those subjects have jobs and most people who become barristers leave and many many more earn between £15k - £50k as they are self employed than the very very few who succeed to earn over £1m. Loads are on legal aid. But then most people are mediocre in all professions.

Also not everyone wants to do the same as others. My duaghter's friend got a first from a very good university and I think works for virtually the minimum wage at a famous auction house. Another of her friends went straight into a job at a bank (they'd worked all university holidays for them already) on £65k a year (and loves it too) but I think most students with any sort of a brain know absolutely clearly what jobs pay what and take decisions based on income and lifestyle needs and their own interests.

ledkrsbellyislikesantas, even more reason why they should pay for their own education

Will agree with that, sincitylover!

Just got back from protest - failed to take part, other than to sign a petition,as the police were blatantly kettling people and I couldn't afford to be kettled - had to get back or I would have had a 4 and 8 year old waiting in the street on their own, once the school bus dropped them off - I'm v cross that my democratic right to protest was removed in this way. And I'm sure I'm not the only one - as well as the people shut off by huge barriers inside, I saw loads and loads of people like myself, shut off outside and unable to join in because of the (totally unnecessary) barriers. Moreover, I was physically pushed - very hard and totally unnecessarily, knocking my mobile phone to the ground (I was speaking on it at the time, trying to arrange to meet my DH, who works in Westminster on just the other side of Parliament Square). A young policeman (or thug in a yellow jacket, to give him his accuarate description) told me I had to move from behind him (where there were no people, and where I was talking on the phone) to in front of him (where there were likewise no people, for a space of about 10 feet in any direction); when I said I didn't want to, and was trying to talk on the phone, he pushed me with considerable force (should add - I don't look remotely dangerous or threatening - I'm very petite, smartly drssed, and look like - well, someone's mum, really - hardly a 'violent' protester). He then had the irony (or lack of irony?) to tell me that I had to move because it was 'dangerous'! - whenclearly the only danger was from the massed rows of extremely violent police. All drssed in riot gear. Clearly a little power goes to some people's heads.

I was both upset and angry, though hardly surprised.

On my way home, I reflected that the reason thugs liked him had little sympathy for students was that they were blatantly too stupid to have ever benefitted from a university education themselves, and were probably jealous of those who had; and also that any children they might ever have (this thug looked young enough to be my son) would likewise never stand a hope in hell of getting in either. So their reactions were understandable, if regrettable.

I also contemplated what a field days REAL criminals must be having - I have never, ever in my life seen anything like that number of police massed into one place, surely outnumbering the (peaceful) protesters by some margin. Presumably a great day to rob a bank, or undertake any other type of criminal activities - they'd clearly brought reinforcements in from very, very far away, as none of them seemed to have the faintest idea of the names of any of the streets they were on, or of open tube stations, when I tried to find my way to one with a map. One particularly dim but very pleasant policewoman assured me that the MASSIVE road I was walking down away from Parliament Square was Downing Street! - I don't think so, dear...

I also thought cheerfully, that when the Tory govt decides to reduce police numbers/pension ages/pensions etc, and the police decide to protest, the students (and their parents) will come and LAUGH.

Not a good day for the police, or for democracy. :(

Xenia, exactly because the more students who want to study law the less chance you have of getting in unless you are very very bright and why should not be the case that is exactly what uni is for the creme de la creme.

I sort of feel for them as they have to enforce law and order while the politicians get protected from their decisions.

Saw them all travelling in this morning along the embankment - they are bound to be hyped up by it all.

Maypole I really hate that argument of why shouuld I pay for this that and the other it's so individualistic, so provincial, parochial and ignores the existence of wider society and the point of democracy.

Ie you vote in a government (which in this cse the majority of the electorate didn't)

You could extend that argument to not wanting to pay for wars, treatment of obese people, trident, bail out of the bankers ad naseum - we are all going to have an opinion on what we do and don't want to pay for.

But it doesn't work like that - you entrust those decisions to the govt via the democratic process.

I do agree that a country is morally bankrupt when it foists large amounts of debt on young people and removes EMA from the most poorly paid.

Did you to university, maypole1?

Do your children, or are they likely to go in future?

granted, THEY WERE THROWING GOLF BALLS , PAINT POTS FILLED WITH PAINT AND POOL BALLS I AM WATCHING THE LIVE FEED NOW LOOKES VERY PEACEFULL TO ME THEY SHOULD RELASE THE HOUNDS AND GET THE TEARS GAS IN ON THOSE YOBS

OK - maybe they were.

BUT I WASN'T.

So don't claim the police are all innocent.

Or all protesters guilty.

Or would you like to tear gas the innocent too?

granted I would have gone too but couldn't risk getting kettled as have to pick up dcs.

As someone who both works in a university and also first one to benefit from university education from my working class family Im pretty passionate about how much of a difference an education can make to your outlook and life experience and career,

very much doubt that maypole has the intelligence to have gone to university. he/she doesn't sound much like it rather the views of a narrow minded bigot.

I wanted maypole1 to comfirm or deny that.

I agree 100% sincitylover.

YES i went to uni had to pay for it myself a my husband did and my son will not be going unless the degree directly links to a job that you cant get with out a degree eg doctor or nurse like his dad no fannying about for 3 years to study media studies and if hes is silly enough to do such a course he will be self supporting and i will fully expect him to pay for it himself

Why did you have to pay for your degree yourself? How old are you? What degree did you do?

You paid the full market rate - the full 9K per annum, like these students? Not subsidised at all?

Do we take it you're a foreign student, then?

The demonstration has clearly been taken over by anarchists who appear to have set fire to a car. Bound to happen since the left is attempting to kill the coalition. The students are merely the usual 'useful idiots'.

Rubbish - it's not 'been taken over by' anyone. London's a big place. So there are some anarchists trying to use the events for their own ends. That doesn't mean anything's been 'taken over'.

Ah, another useful idiot...

maypole1 - sp am I right?

Are you a foreign student? Or did you choose to study at a private university? Or did you study a private course like drama or dance?

I just can'r understand why you would have not had a subsidised course?

Ah,another cynical bigot, harvalp...

^
Think people wopuld be more sympathetic if the degrees were relevant to the development of usefull careers.
^

I've finding it difficult to follow whether people think

• that a university course has to lead to a good chance of a particular sort of job (which Golf Management might do, i don't know - as, theoretically, might Management of Reality TV Shows), or

• that a university course has to be in a subject that they regard as somehow ok, not 'Mickey Mouse', which seems to me to be pretty subjective as some people say that about subjects that I regard as important, or

• that a university course should be in an academic subject, regardless of whether or not it leads to a job.

A lot of posters seem to expect that the £9k a year fee will weed out the courses they don't want, but they don't all want the same thing, so they're not all going to get what they expect.

The thing about the useless courses, whichever ones they are, is that the government could stop funding them at any point. They don't have to increase tuition fees to do that.

I expect that the fees will reduce applications for all courses (although an Australian contributor says not, so maybe not) but especially those which are not vocational, which includes subjects that we should still have people studying.

Harvalp,

I would agree that a range of competenecies in government, as in the running of any company, is advisable, but why do we need to 'get rid of the generalists'. Do you think that there is no value in developing analytical and critical thinking skill while studying and understanding humanity through the process of history, philosophical and political thought, economics, literature and so on? Do you think that the developement of intelligence and understanding is useful only if it is applied to a narrow sphere?

Rrocks, we seem to have somewhat crossed threads here. But I think that too many generalists at senior levels in government and the senior civil service is not a healthy thing. It's clearly visible in all the major parties now, where so many figures have gone straight into politics, in some form, with no experience outside that hothouse.

No reply from maypole1.

Strange.

'On my way home, I reflected that the reason thugs liked him had little sympathy for students was that they were blatantly too stupid to have ever benefitted from a university education themselves, and were probably jealous of those who had; and also that any children they might ever have (this thug looked young enough to be my son) would likewise never stand a hope in hell of getting in either.'

And you teach? Just because the policeman got you to move is no reason for the vitriol. For all you know he may well have a first from Oxford, or have more awareness of a tactical situation about to develop that you may not have known about, as you were presumably not privy to all the information that was being fed to him.

I thought you were an adult Granted and an educated one; carry on throwing your metaphorical toys out of the pram, it's most enlightening.

The policeman did not 'get me to move', scaryteacher. He pushed me with considerable violence, knocking my phone to the ground (thankfully it did not break).

My OH was around in the area for another 45 minutes - there were no 'tactical situations' developing. Nor could there be - I was on the wrong side of a barrier, surrounded by police.

No - he was a small-time bully and a thug.

I cannot think of an 'intelligent' reason for that behaviour.

And besides, scaryteacher, I thought you were very much of the view that some of your students would just never be 'up' to getting a good degree or going to university.

Well, this lout clearly fitted that bill.

maypole-i was agreeing with you :)
I must say its nice to see healthy debate on mn without the need for nastiness,its rare these days.