How about thinking of the elderly for a change ?

[ivanhoe]

The middle classes have managed to put their case on the media map because of Child Benefit reductions.

Wheras the pensioners cause has never found a media voice.

So middle England are moaning about losing their Child benefit, and the media are picking up on it and discussing it as a topical issue, because the middle classes are making a fuss.

But hang on a minute ?, the poorest people in this country are not the middle classes, they are the working classes who in proportion to income are paying more taxes than the middle class, and the pensioners on a £5,000 a year State pension receiving a State pension which they have already paid for while working prior to their old age retirement are being ignored, even though the oldest pensioners fought for this country during the War years.

Our elderly people are the generation that government?s have run rough shod over for the past 30 years, this is the generation we should all be speaking up for, and this is the generation who have paid into the system all their working lives, but have to endure a basic State pension of £97 a week, and means tested handouts.

Many woman get less State pension due to lack of contributions while raising families.

well I don't listen to all of the pronouncements of Labour to be honest, so I'm not sure what their latest policies are. But I am sure that I have heard them say before that means testing leads precisely to the problem of people not claiming their entitlements. Isn't the NHS a universal benefit, and not means tested?

Yes and I don't agree with the Conservatives on means testing. I am with Labour on that one.

There would be some wastage. Benefits would definitely get to the needy, and also to some who are less needy. But that is a price worth paying to ensure that our people are properly looked after and all our disacbled people and pensioners receive every penny that they are entitled to, and which we have all paid for with our taxes.

Don't believe the arguments about waste made by fatcats. They just spent nearly half a billion on the World Cup bid and got two votes. They are telling us that their bid wss the usual best in the world, just as they tell us our deteriorating health service is the best in the world along with everything else. I would prefer to "waste" some money on our disabled people and pensioners rather than hand it over to bankers and waste it on all their other schemes.

There's a gree proposal for acitizens wage payable to everyone without an income: carers, pensioners, disabled, sick, people on maternity leave IIRC,. I think that has merit (its higher than benefits currently but thats made up by saving on means testing).

presumably there's be some penalties for those who didn't bother to want tow ork (or thee would be in my world anyway) and careful checking for eligibility but it makes sense to me.

OTOH I;ve read about an idea for a citizen's wage for all which is silly as it would just oush costs up if everyone had it and mean that the basics were still as out of reach of the poorest. Pointless.

Personally I think means testing does negatively affect people hugely- we didn;t claim, sti9ll don;t, a lot of what we should becuase we in part loathe the process (council tax we pay all but student discount; we should be on full benefit). But also becuase not claiming it helps us keep our heads a bit higher, is a source of personal 'look we're doing as best we can' pride. That's not a bad thing at all. pride can work both ways: in can slip you up and force you into penury but it can also motivtae people to find solutions to their stumbling blocks. it's not income level that makes dh and I want to be 100% independent again but pride.

Anyway I think that soem things should be means tested and some not- CB, DLA, NHS etc definitely no. They have set purposes. Other things- free TV licence (I used to post the forms for my millionaire FD when it first came out), bus passes yes.

Claig you are the only person I ever met with a less predicatable political ideology than me LOL.

SantasMooningArse, that is why me and you are so often right on every issue, and the predictable politicos, on their one-tracked progressive path, are so often wrong

claid , you've found a spare zero from somewhere. The World Cup bid cost £50 million.

Which is what these things cost. The Russions paid Zidane £15 million alone to be their ambassador.

Yes your DD should get whatever the care costs. We are one community, one country and we are all in it together. That's why we pay taxes to help all of our people in need. Instead of paying MPs to flip their houses, we can easily afford £2000 for your DD and everybody else's DD. We are a rich country, and we found billions to bail out bankers and billions to bail out Ireland and billions for much else. We have even increased the foreign aid budget and spent half a billion on the World Cup bid and are spending billions on the Olympics. Fatcats then say there is no momey available to pay for the disabled, sick and elderly. There is money available and it should be a priority to spend it on our people, not on fatcat schemes.

'But that wastage would still happen even with a 'citizens wage'. The fatcats and wotnot would still be greedy, still not want to pay taxes to pay for the NHS etc.'

It is up to us to make sure that fatcat politicians make sure that our taxes are spent on the people and not on schemes that do not benefit the people. We must be united, we must not be divided. There is lots of money, it is a question of how it is allocated and who benefits from all our tax money.

sorry I must have misheard about the cost of the bid. I thought I heard a figure of £463 million yesterday. I was obviously wrong on that.

"It is up to us to make sure that fatcat politicians make sure that our taxes are spent on the people and not on schemes that do not benefit the people. We must be united, we must not be divided. There is lots of money, it is a question of how it is allocated and who benefits from all our tax money."

That is really a VERY socialist position.

Well the socialists are not wrong on everything, just most things.

It's pretty fundamental one though.

Of course it is. But do you think that the progressives believe in it? It was Gordon Brown that bailed out our banks. It was under Gordon's watch, that MPs were flipping their homes like yoyos. It was Tony and Gordon that took us into wars. It was Labour that built the Millenium Dome and spent money on the Olympics.

Socialism meens looking after Society as a whole, and Community as part of that Society.

Thatcher didnt believe in any of that, and we will suffer the consequences of her policies for decades to come.

//////There is lots of money, it is a question of how it is allocated and who benefits from all our tax money."/////

Precisely.

Haven't you read about Dennis Skinner in Blair's biography? Labour people will know the full details, I haven't read Blair's book.

Progressive is a meaningless term.
Bailing out the banks cost very little in the end.
The whole expenses scandal was a pointless sideshow.
The Millenium Dome was a Conservative project - expanded by Labour and in terms of the experience it provided - a bit shit. It is now the best large arena I've been to. Better than the new Wembley which is pretty good to.
The Olympics should be a a net gain.
The wars are more dubious.

'Progressive is a meaningless term.'

agree entirely. That's why Labour has chosen to rebrand itself as progressive and are "building a progressive future".

So it seems that there are the 2 opposing issues here - one being the fact that means testing prevents some in genuine need from claiming what they are entitled to, the other being that universal benefits waste money by giving it to people who really don't need it.

Sadly I am a real cynic when it comes to the human race, and believe there are very few who would turn down the offer of free money, no matter how well off they are. At one point my circumstances meant that I was receiving a phenomenal amount in tax credits, almost the same again as my already quite comfortable salary. I felt guilty, but did I ring HMRC and say "thanks very much Mr Tax Man, but actually I can cope quite well without this"? What do you think?!?

So yes, of course pensioners, as well as disabled, unemployed and poverty-striken people should be able to access the money they deserve and need more easily without jumping through flaming hoops for some jobs-worth in a council office. The information about what they are entitled to should be readily accessible, presented to them without them needing to hunt for it.

But I won't go as far as some of you to say that means-testing should be entirely removed. We're not just talking about a few million being wasted to ensure that several billion is correctly distributed. I think we're probably more likely to be talking about doubling the money spent - half on genuine cases, half to people who don't need it at all but will gladly take it, thank you very much.

And no, I don't think someone deserves double or triple their pension for no other reason than the fact they've lived a long time. If that pensioner has done very well for themselves financially, invested well, and gone into retirement with a fully paid-off house, they should concede that there are other members of society far more deserving of the money than them, including other pensioners who have not done so well.

How's that for a divide and conquer for you? How about some of these pensioners who are not in need of a state pension, being privately well-off, sacrifice their state pensions to another pensioner more in need than them?

Here are the socialists explaining why means testing means that many of the poor don't claim their benefits
www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=22234

and here is the good old Daily Mail, the paper that is on the side of the people, explaining the same thing

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-497531/OAPs-lose-50-000-unclaimed-benefits.html

Read the comments of the Mail readers, some of the most sagacious, astute and discerning people in the country. They know the score.