Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Do you believe in God?

1000 replies

VirtualPA · 21/06/2010 20:45

I am interested to know what the majority of people belive.

I personally believe in a Christian God, Heaven and hell etc.

I raised a strict an athiest

OP posts:
UnquietDad · 26/06/2010 22:00

Cheerfulyank - absolutely delighted to be thought of as a young Giles. I've had far worse!!

Obviously SGB and I are in the same corner, but if there is any main difference between us it's that I don't automatically think the religious are stupid - Rowan Williams, for one, is an example of a high-profile Christian who is obviously academically intelligent. But I do think it is possible for the intelligent to disengage their intellect, or simply not apply it when it comes to their religion. As someone who studied literature at university and was taught that it was healthy to mistrust "canonical" or accepted interpretations of texts, I'd want to take the Bible apart, not accept it at face value.

I've never bought the "god, liar or madman" thing (I know it comes up in about week 3 of the Alpha Course) as I think there are so many other options... e.g. Jesus didn't really say he was the son of god but it was deliberately mis-reported, or it was added afterwards, or he was happy for other to call him that... We have no idea, really, about the accuracy of the gospels. They aren't live reportage.

At least the argument has moved on beyond people having a random dig at me because they had no more points. All my questions still remain unanswered, by the way - nobody has "proved" anything. Just to clarify. It's a general internet-arguing fallacy - saying "I've refuted this" or "I've proved it" doesn't make it true...

Psammead · 26/06/2010 22:14

Thanks diplodoris, CheerfulYank, BlueEyeshadow and UQD for your answers

BlueEyeshadow · 26/06/2010 22:25

For what it's worth, UQD and others, a lot of Christians don't buy the "madman, liar, god" argument either.

sunshinenanny · 26/06/2010 22:54

I have known that God existed from a very young age. It wasn't something that I was taught or had thrown at me! my father was an agnostic and my mother although not a great church goer, believed that god existed. I always knew god was a part of my life and loved him for it. I don't force my beliefs on others but find those who don't believe can be quite nasty in their arguments.

I know that Abba is there in my life and looking out for me in times both good and bad and I don't feel the need to need to prove it to anyone

SpeedyGonzalez · 26/06/2010 23:00

Apols, I am dipping in and out of this thread most erratically so forgive me for not following the whole discourse. I have a question which I've been thinking about for some time and would welcome all your thoughts...

Concerning this matter of suffering and the existence of a god - i.e. how could a loving god exist and allow suffering. There is so much suffering in the world which we human beings do sod all about despite our immense capacity to do so. Yet we don't question the our own existence, or the existence/ authenticity of love in ourselves, on this basis. Have you ever asked yourself: 'Since I've not given money to xyz cause/ stood up for this dispossessed person's rights, can I really claim to be a loving person?' So is it an adequate question use to try to disprove the existence of a god?

What I've posed is a bit of a messy question, I know, and I probably haven't gathered my thoughts well enough yet. But it just seems that the 'how could a god of love exist' question is inadequate for the task for which it's intended.

Any thoughts?

SpeedyGonzalez · 26/06/2010 23:01

Sunshine - I read your last para first - hilarious out of context! Made me think of Muriel's Wedding!

diplodoris · 26/06/2010 23:23

"We have no idea, really, about the accuracy of the gospels"

Are The Gospels Reliable?

The Historical Reliability of the Gospels

fidelma · 26/06/2010 23:46

no I don't believe.I wish I did.

robberbutton · 26/06/2010 23:53

That's what I thought too Speedy! Liked your argument btw.

UQD, I have a completely different approach to you, almost the opposite in fact. I start from a default belief that God exists, and apply a healthy scepticism to what the world has to offer. What benefit would it bring me not to believe in Christianity? Would my life be better? My conclusion is a resounding negative.

I've heard lots of people say 'I would really like to be able to believe,' and I think: I would really like that for them too, because you have no idea what it is like to be able to commit your life to the hands of an all-loving, all-powerful God.

I'm no Rowan Williams but I have a first class degree from a top 5 uni so might begin to tick the 'academic' boxes. But while I certainly don't "disengage" and put my stupid head on whenever I think about God, I also do not think that flawed human logic and reasoning is the be all and end all: either your heart is prepared to believe or it isn't, and if not then intellectual arguments are moot. I think they can be interesting, but ultimately futile if either side are trying to change anyone's mind. It's a shame they get so heated.

robberbutton · 26/06/2010 23:56

Like fidelma! What's stopping you?

ZephirineDrouhin · 26/06/2010 23:57

Speedy, I have to say that I do think that the question of the authenticity of our love is one which we could do with asking a lot more often. We all know that we live our lives on the back of others' suffering, and yet despite this we like to consider ourselves loving people on the basis the love that we extend to those who are close to us, and tend to regard this love as some sort of ennobling ideal. We consider too that all human beings are worthy of love and respect, but we have to be very selective in our viewing to believe that our behaviour bears this out.

Most of the ideals which we generally (atheist or not) hold to be true concerning love, justice, respect, goodness etc require every bit as much blind faith as belief in a benevolent god. And just as with belief in a benevolent god, we hold on to them because we need to, and because belief in these ideas has become part of what we are as human beings, but certainly not because they have any verifiable basis in reality. Religion enshrines these ideals and attempts to elucidate them through story and symbol, but via whatever media we choose to receive these unverifiable notions about goodness, love etc, and whether we accept or reject our religious traditions, we cannot function without them.

SpeedyGonzalez · 27/06/2010 00:01

You said it so much more eloquently than I did, Zephirine. I think our egos and sense of value are so easily threatened, which is why so many of us shy away from this kind of examination of the heart. Every one of us actively hurts someone every day, in one way or another, yet as you say, in order to survive, we have to blind ourselves to this truth.

SpeedyGonzalez · 27/06/2010 00:02

Robber - at Abba. My question wasn't really an 'argument', though, it really was an open question.

robberbutton · 27/06/2010 00:40

Zephirine puts it very well- it could almost be an argument for the biblical view of humanity:

For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). If we claim to be without sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us (1 John 1:8).

seraphine3stars · 27/06/2010 02:56

SolidGoldBrass

On the subject of you having found all Christian books boring....

I bet you have watched one of the film versions, who hasn't, but have you actually read 'Quo Vadis' by Henryk Sienkiewicz ?

I've just finished reading it for the second time ( first time as a teen so ages ago )and was totally hooked, a thoroughly gripping epic novel, fully deserving a literary Nobel Prize it received.

It is a unashamedly passionate portrayal of the Christian faith and yet I believe still really enjoyable to read for any non believer as well.

Easily obtained online, am just about to purchase an English language copy myself, as a birthday present for DH, as the one I have is in original lingua ie Polish.

I am also a GREAT fan of Lord of The Rings and I consider it a Christian book as it is soooo steeped in Christian symbolism.
Tolkien , of course, lived and died devout Catholic and was a pal of C.S. Lewis !

seraphine3stars · 27/06/2010 03:05

UnquiedDad

Am curious......What exactly happened 15 years ago, as you keep bringing this number up ?

Did you lose your faith, had an atheist epithany, met the first Christian to argue with...?

backtotalkaboutthis · 27/06/2010 03:56

Onagar: I'm not trying to say Christians are praiseworthy because they believe in a logical impossibility.

I'm saying: do not assume that Christians are blind, deluded, stupid, unaware of the logic, incapable of rational thought.

Do not assume that Christianity is just a nice rest, rather than a struggle.

backtotalkaboutthis · 27/06/2010 03:57

Onagar: I'm not trying to say Christians are praiseworthy because they believe in a logical impossibility.

I'm saying: do not assume that Christians are blind, deluded, stupid, unaware of the logic, incapable of rational thought.

Do not assume that Christianity is just a nice rest, rather than a struggle.

Evil can't be a consequnce of free will. It was there for us to choose. Or how could we have chosen it?

dawntigga · 27/06/2010 07:20

backtalkaboutthis

Isaiah 30:32, Luke 14:26, Numbers 31:17-18, Matthew 10:34, Amos 3:6, Deuteronomy 18:8, Deuteronomy 20:16, Exodus 20:5, Exodus 32:27, Isaiah 45:7, Psalms 52:5, Luke 22:36, and Jeremiah 18:11

Tend to show your god as pretty evil therefore I refute your posit that your god is pure good by definition.

YourWelcomeTiggaxx

MUM2BLESS · 27/06/2010 10:50

Wow this talk seems to get a lot of responses.

Its important that we understand that God has given all of us a choice. We were not made robots.

I choose to believe in the almighty God. Anyone who chooses not to will never know what God can offer.

I will not argue with anyone if they choose not to believe God.

Backtotalkabouthis you seem so bitter towards God. "God you are so stupid" you wrote. Its sad you feel this way.

I choose to say God you are so AMAZING!!!!!!

I have been a Christian for over 35 years and have NEVER regreted this !!!!!

robberbutton · 27/06/2010 11:12

dawntigga do you really think it is that easy? Do you think that Christians will go 'gosh, must have missed those bits, oh well, that's that then.'?

Even athiests have to concern themselves with context, definition and meaning. Indeed, if misplaced soundbites are the extent of the argument, it kind of shows that it is the people who are trying to argue against the Bible that need to 'disengage' their intellect to do so.

PS - if you would like me to explain how a Christian would view those verses I will happily do so, but I don't want to if you are just trying to make a point and not really interested.

JingleJangle7 · 27/06/2010 11:27

No
If there is a god he lets innocent babies be born with HIV, starve, get beaten etc. what a lovely guy to worship?! Nature is far too amazing to use a cop out and superficial explaniation like god made it. Everything around us is real so let's find out how it works!

I signed up as a Bright because I liked the idea of having a more positive name for athiests. Really athiest just meant that you didn't believe in the state gods of Rome several thousand years ago so technically everyone is an athiest. I liked the name Bright for modern athiest in the same way that Gay is much nicer than Queer or Homosexual.
I get their Emails and their wording is really wooly and annoying with their "promoting a naturalistic and non-superstitous viewpoint" etc. I think they are the same lot that wrote the EU constitution, same writing style.

Brights are a nice idea but are a bit up their own bottoms. I'm more a fan of the Scottish Humanist Socitey especially since they married DH and I. A far more proactive bunch!

SolidGoldBrass · 27/06/2010 11:34

PadmeHum: Don't want you to feel left out so I'll happily call buddhism a load of old bollocks as well. It's certainly as riddled with misogyny as all the rest of the superstitions.

UnquietDad · 27/06/2010 11:48

seraphine: thank you for the opportunity to clarify that question. I only say 15 years ago as it's a rough estimate of the time (aged 24-25) at which I began to ask myself I was a really dedicated churchgoer or if, in fact, I was just in it for the biscuits. It's what I say if someone ask me to put a figure on how long I have been an atheist. I think it is no coincidence that it's most of my adult life. And it's the same time at which I began to discover discussion groups about this sort of thing (did anybody ever go on alt.atheism?) and to exchange ideas with like-minded friends... That's all!

robberbutton - why do you start from the default position of belief in this particular god when there are so many others available, with equally good (or poor) evidence for their existence?

UnquietDad · 27/06/2010 11:59

Three things about atheism which I thought late last night I wanted to say.

The first is that atheists come from all walks of life and so it is obvious that we are not all going to agree about everything. The only thing we can all say for certain that we have in common is our lack of belief in gods. What we choose to do with that, how we express it, what we think of people who do believe, how we express that, etc., etc., will be different for each individual.

The second is that atheism is by no means an easy option. Growing up in a country which is, undoubtedly "culturally Christian" to a great extent - and which is riddled with assumptions and preceonceptions based on the long-held dominance of one major religion in the political and economic spheres - it's often, still, something which is met with suspicion and incredulity. On the other hand, I know we are lucky not to live in a country where you are likely to be executed for heresy. And not to live in a country like the USA, where you can be seriously disadvantaged in any kind of political office, in work or in extra-curricular activity if you "come out" as an atheist.

And thirdly, atheism attracts me because of its intellectual honesty. You know exactly what you are getting. You ask us a question about what we think, we will give a direct answer without weasel words or trying to resort to texts, because we don't need them. Reams, books, can be written about atheism, and have been - but it can be summed up in one sentence. A child can get the concept. Arguing with the religious, there is often a sense of shifting sands - of "well, this isn't quite what that means" or "well, most Christians don't really read it that way" or "we don't take that bit literally" or "well, modern thinking says..." It's slippy. It's like trying to ladle fog. I won't intentionally give you any of that. And I don't think any of my fellow atheists will intentionally do so either.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.