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Original poster

Hands up who believes in creationism/doesn't believe in evolution?

204 replies

MrsWobbleTheWaitress · 29/03/2010 18:57

I know a lot of Christians who believe in evolution, so I kind of had this rather naive idea that people who didn't believe in it were very few and far between. But I just discovered someone I've known a long time, and respect a great deal, doesn't believe in evolution.

So who else doesn't? How common is it?

OP posts:
Hermya321 · 29/03/2010 19:57

If I'm honest as a believer I don't really do all out creationism.

I tend to go down the whole intelligant design route. I don't believe that Evolution is the be all and end all. Part of Darwins theory was that things would get simpler as you went down to the cellular level. That isn't true as you open the cell and you get another whole mess of stuff which is just mind boggling.

I do go with macro evolution though, that makes sense to me. As for the rest, for me the maths doesn't add up, yes I do believe that God created the earth and everything in it. But, I've seen some of the maths that is associated with the chances of the systems that are in place within the earth i.e where it's positioned within the solar system, the types of biological systems within our body etc etc. I just think that it's too much to just be explained away by chance ifyswim.

I do buy into science don't get me wrong, I just think that these were the mechanisms that God used to put everything here so to speak.

I'm not tryng to say that my way is the right way by any stretch of the imagination. This is just the conclusion that I've come to in my own mind.

Mrswobble I didn't think you were pointing and laughing at all. I think you've hit upon one of those topics that gets everyone going. To answer your earlier question, many Christians have different stances on creationism. Some go all out and take Genesis literally, eg the earth was created in seven days, dinosaurs were planted by Goddie Izzard etc. Some go the opposite direction and believe in evolution and that we evolved from primates. Others are shades of the inbetween and go for a more intelligant design approach where they believe God is behind how the universe is designed and created. Some non christians do intelligant design as well. But, they believe in an entity other than God. I hope that helps.

Original poster
MrsWobbleTheWaitress · 29/03/2010 20:10

Ah, now Mousey and Hermya, I think that's what my friend was saying she believes in. That makes sense now you've explained it a bit more - we didn't really have the time (and weren't really in the right place either!) to discuss it in any detail!

I think I rather assumed, though, that nearly everyone believed in the whole theory of evolution. I see that there are different levels of belief in evolution now, though.

Very interesting, and a challenge to non-judgementalness (I think I've just made up a word!).

OP posts:
kif · 29/03/2010 20:19

I was referring to the general tone of the responses (e.g RubberDuck!) rather than the OP, Mrs Wobble.

I wouldn't class Creationism as a theory. It is phrased in the language of religion, so it makes no sense to argue it in terms of science. In the same way, it makes no sense to discuss scientific theories in religious language. You just end up with the same non-connecting arguments (some of which we've heard on this thread).

Imagine a deaf person and a blind person debating over how a car engine worked. They could both be right in their own way - and be totally bemused by the descriptions of the other.

RubberDuck · 29/03/2010 21:39

Why should particular beliefs protected from ridicule if they are suitably ridiculous? If I sincerely believe that I am Napoleon, I'm pretty sure people would point and laugh at that. I am perfectly within my rights to believe it, but I'm still perfectly wrong.

Not all belief systems are created equal.

For example, some people firmly believe that female genital mutilation is a good thing. Should we be respectful of that?

I'm not. Mind, I don't laugh at that one.

Original poster
MrsWobbleTheWaitress · 29/03/2010 21:58

I just don't think it's particularly kind, respectful, pleasant or anything positive to laugh at someone else. I think what would be kinder and more respectful would be to try to learn where that person's beliefs are coming from - whether it's because they have a very strong faith in a religion, or because they have some sort of mental, delusional illness, or whatever. I just can't imagine laughing at someone's deep-founded beliefs!

you sound like a really...um...lovely person, rubberduck!

OP posts:
RubberDuck · 29/03/2010 22:21

So let's just avoid having an rational scientific discussion in case we upset someone's deeply held beliefs. Good god, no wonder we're reaching spectacular levels of scientific literacy in this country.

And yes, I am a lovely person thanks. Just someone who is tired of the same arguments coming up again and again and has done the patient reasoned discussion too many times before without much success. I see you are painstakingly taking care to learn where I'm coming from and being completely non-judgemental.

Love, Napoleon.

brassband · 29/03/2010 22:22

You just hasve to look at particle physics to know that mankind understands bugger all about science really.

ozmetric · 29/03/2010 22:25

I think God created scientific laws and evolution, so there's no conflict between God and science/evolution.

sungirltan · 29/03/2010 22:32

at rubberduck well you made me laugh, napoleon!!

how anyone can deny we evolved from apes i just cannot fathom. go to any natural history exhibit and look at the skeletons lined up. the evidence is clear.

despairs

JuJusDad · 29/03/2010 22:45

What rubberduck said.

"God put [dinosaur fossils] here to test our faith!" ? I think God put you here to test my faith, dude. Does that bother anybody else, the idea that God might be fucking with our heads? I have trouble sleeping with that knowledge, some prankster god runnin' around, [pantomimes digging] "We'll see who believes in me now. I am the Prankster God ? I am killing me!"

Bill Hicks, Relentless, 1993

onagar · 29/03/2010 22:46

I completely understand why Hermya321 and others can accept macro evolution, but boggle at the whole amoeba to man thing. For many years I felt there must be some major bits of the puzzle missing that would make it more likely.

I have read that Darwin had doubts a bit later too. If I'm remembering what I read correctly, advances in biology made during his lifetime demonstrated some of the complexity of living things. Seeing those he started to boggle at how much and how long it would take.

I don't actually 'believe' in evolution now. I accept it as the best description so far of how it worked. It's going to be broadly true because there is so much evidence for it, but there are plenty of details we don't know yet so there might be some interesting twists.

There is of course no evidence at all for creationism, but again I can see why that is an attractive option. It ties it all up so neatly.

RubberDuck · 29/03/2010 22:49

Of course no-one spotted my deliberate (honest) error. I meant to type scientific ILLITERACY

Bloody iPhone typing!!

Mumof · 29/03/2010 22:52

I do not believe in evolution I believe god made the world so I guess I am a creationalist

LauraIngallsWilder · 29/03/2010 23:06

I have friends who believe in 7 day creation (well technically 6)

I have recently discovered that there are those who believe Adam and Eve round around the garden of eden on the backs of the dinosaurs...............

And that Noah took dinosuar eggs onto the ark.............

I am a Christian (struggling faith wise). I think the first few chapters of Genesis are intended to be symbolic - off now to read the rest of this thread and see what you all think!

Mongolia · 29/03/2010 23:13

I find a lot of similarities between creationism and the joke of the man who prayed to God to be saved during a flood, turned away every offer of help, and then complained to God because he didn't help him.

All the signs are there, but they are sticking to their view of how things should be.

ooojimaflip · 29/03/2010 23:16

Evolution is, as near as anything can be a fact. Organims evolve. We have seen then do it. It is used in labs. It is why you keep getting colds, and why we get antibiotic resistant bacteria.

Some people believe this doesn't explain how the diversity of life we see now. Instead they prefer to believe in supernatural explantions.

I don't.

littleducks · 29/03/2010 23:16

I'm not christian so would never call myself a creationist, but I dont believe in evolution so i suppose technically I am.

I studied geology at uni, (that normally shocks people when this comes up!) so i have seen some of the evidence but am unconvinced by the theory of evolution. I do resent it when people present evolution as 'fact' IME people with scientific knowledge are much more open that it is a theory and does have some holes in it, but as yet is the best theory they have found.

Things like studying the DNA double helix and how DNA is copied when cells divide makes me favour creationism over evolution.

ooojimaflip · 29/03/2010 23:22

littleducks - If you beleive that someone created life you are a creationist.

BitterAndTwistedChoreDodger · 29/03/2010 23:23

Surely if you read Genesis, it pretty much describes the big bang theory? Science and God are not mutually exclusive?

thisisyesterday · 29/03/2010 23:24

dunno, i've read Genesis. and big bang theory.

don't remember god being involved?

LauraIngallsWilder · 29/03/2010 23:26

Littleducks - Im with you on that

It makes me cross when people complaign on here that their child has been taught about the bible as fact (because they think its a story etc)
But then happily go on to talk about evolution as a fact

Neither are entirely certain, tis all about faith surely?
ie I think you need a degree of 'faith' in scientists to 'believe' 100% of all that is said about evolution, just as you need 'faith' to believe in any or all of what the bible says.

I struggle because I find it difficult to believe in God AND dinosaurs, evolution etc. Each individually I can cope with but havent yet worked out in my head how to match the two together!

zazen · 29/03/2010 23:31

RubberDuck RubberDuck, we got ourselves a convoy!

But Not Tonight... I'm too tired to argue with Muppets,

Josephine x

littleducks · 29/03/2010 23:31

I do believe in 'natural selection' and genetic mutations of viruses and bacteria. That is quite clear to see, but i dont believe that this continued on to evolution of humans from apes etc.

However much a virus mutates, however much it develops/changes it still remains a virus.

ooojimaflip · 29/03/2010 23:32

God I HATE post-modernism.

Not all opinions are equally valid. Lets look at the epistomology of the two theories.

  1. Creationism - that life on earth was created by a supernatural being. Evidence - None.

2)Evolution - that life on earth spontaneously evolved. Evidence - well understood mechanism, fossil record, dna analysis etc. etc.

So unless you a priori believe in a supernatural being, Evolution is considerably more convincing.

LauraIngallsWilder · 29/03/2010 23:34

ooojimaflip - I am by the first word in your post!