How can I reconcile with the church in the wake of abuse scandal?

[chibi]

I really feel like this is the last straw. It's funny, I knew that the church has done some crappy things in it's history, but somehow this latest sex abuse scandal has just clinched it for me- I don't think I want to go back. I feel sick and betrayed. It goes so far beyond 'well priests are human and fallible blah blah' the whole church itself knew and covered it up. Probably even the one who is pope now.

I feel like I can't go to mass anymore as it won't just be me being with god but will be me giving my assent and consent to all thus awfulness - do what you like, I don't mind, I'll come back no matter what.

I can't just shop around for a new branch of Christianity, to me that's like saying well if your parents are abusive just get new ones! It's them or nothing, really.

Fellow Catholics, how is all this affecting you? I feel cut adrift.

Please no anticatholic bile spewing I know exactly how awful my church is already.

But those priets, lovely as they may be, work for, and take direction from, an organistaion which has systematically covered up the abuse of children, and an organistaion which informs people on morality and expects people to follow it's moral teaching.

Institutinal child abuse is bad enough in any organistion, but within one which dictates to others on the morality of their own lives is deeply repugnant.

A cover up of abuse in childens homes world wide would be terrible, but this is worse are we expected to take moral direction and have respect for 'spiritual' leadres who could be involved in something like this?

The top tier of the church hierarchy has ALWAYS put the protection of the church and its assets before the protection of the most its vulnerable members, and they clearly don't see much wrong with that. They're still completely in denial about what has taken place. Hard to see it ever changing fundamentally. Child protection may be taken more seriously in future but the culture of absolute loyalty to the apparatus of control - that's not going anywhere. It's how the church works. I really sympathise with the op and others; I feel the same. Despairing really.

I hope this episode brings about lasting, systemic change in our church but I wouldn't bank on it, I keep hearing how numbers in the West have dwindled to the extent that the only hope for the Catholic church is the conservative African church, so not much chance of priestly marriage, increased tolerance or reduced misogyny.

A second Reformation would be great, bring it on.

I am C of E, but sympathise with teh Catholics on here.
It affects all of us anyway, as the pope is the most famous christian leader in teh world. I wish they would allow married and women priests, and get rid of this huge hypocritical lie at the centre of the church.

I live in Bavaria, where the current pope is from. People are very deeply catholic here, and they were delighted when one of their own became pope. The scandals are provoking very deep feelings. Last week, it was discovered that a priest who had been moved from parish to parish several times, when he had been caught abusing children, was actually the priest at a church not far from us. There were demonstrations at sunday mass, people were very upset. Not least, because one of the transfers, not the first one I believe, took place while Ratzinger was in charge of the area.

I dread a conservative African or Polish priest being sent to our parish when our priest retires. They are so old-fashioned about contraception, etc. It is the last thing we need at the moment. Expect I'll be flamed for saying that but sadly it's true: priests from Western Europe/North America tend to be a little more enlightened on these matters.

fgs, the nazis are so irrelevant to this! whatnot's rule really ought to apply here.

Sadly, I don't think Dittany is overstating it
This was happening in the mid 1990s
Not in the 1950s when I could maybe excuse it by people not knowing how to deal with it
And it does come down to the church protecting it's assets over it's most vunerable
And I don't think I can live that anymore
The fact that the pope is as involved as anyone else just shows how the attitudes run throughout the hierarchy
I am disgusted (just not from Tunbridge Wells)
I wish it had been different, but it isn't

Just going to mark that I seem to have been inaccuarate in making my 1950s analogy...

Now feeling even more confused.

It wont change fundamentally until they bring in people with a fundamentally different outlook on life into positions of power, ie married priests and women.

I don't understand how the particular church can be so important when it's supposed to be about God....

It's this cultural business someguy. For my Irish and Italian friends being RC is part of their whole identity, it goes beyond worship. It is a community, a link back to their country of origin, the religion all their famiy practice and so on.

Which is why "have you tried CofE" isn't necessarily a very helpful answer (even though it's the best I can come up with).

Hence people are in crisis as they are questioning a huge and fundamental part of their whole identity.

I am fortunate in a way that my RC upbringing was not as strong, and the source some generations back, and my mum was an only child so there aren't any family links (my dad is CofE) so for me to make the switch was relatively easy.

I still feel that I "am" RC in a way that I am not CofE though - this is the thing with the RC church - they get right into your core somehow.

Does anyone know what was the impetus for Vatican II? What makes the church change? I don't know.

Part of the problem is that the church doesn't have a self correcting system, and one can't exactly vote them out of power as it's absolute and as everyone knows, 'absolute power corrupts absolutely...'

From a faith stance, much would depend on the parish. Is it somewhere that is part of one's community? If so, then it's similar to despising the Prime Minister, but liking the constituent MP.

It's such a personal decision, and of course the problem being that there isn't really a way of registering one's disgust and since parish priests aren't really discussing the matter, makes it more difficult to come to some reconciliation.

Alternatively, perhaps people attending mass could wear t shirts saying, 'Here for the Faith. Zero Tolerance for Abuse.'

OP, am feeling and thinking some of the stuff you are. We attend mass and DH very opposed to idea of stopping. As I am myself tbh. It's difficult because, by going to mass people do think you give your tacit approval to all the crap that's been happening. Ultimately for us as a family it's about our relationship with God, and teaching our kids how to have one too. I am happy for my dc's to go.

I am taking a small stance in our home..I read every article I can find and update myself and then my DH (tendency to stick head in the sand) as to the current situation.. Also have decided to only contribute to parish day to day running and not the second collections and other diocesan fund raising.

I teach our kids about the sanctity of the home, the importance of loving parents in a strong stable relationship, to be always kind and loving and respectful of others and to respect that people will and always have been diverse. They are young and despite this have started to bring in the whole responsibility you have if you get a girl/boyfriend.

I live in Scotland and am not of the Irish diaspora so no strong ties to a community of Catholics in that sense, although my family are Scottish Catholics and have been for generations, being a Catholic in Scotland has meant that you kind of play your cards close to your chest and keep your head below the parapet.... I could have sent them to an RC school but chose not to in favour of another. I am teaching them their faith and in a drip/drip style that will hopefully take a lot of the really beautiful aspects of being Catholic into their adult lives. Having a Whitney Houston moment about kids and the future..(boak)but it's our kids that'll change the strictness, inflexibility, ethos of secrecy..I'm not saying that celibacy will become a choice or that women priest be ordained but given how we are in the UK today where people in any position have to be accountable for their actions, I think that'll filter down, if we take our place and remember that we are the Church and the Priests are our servants iyswim...

Can't remember the film but Alec Guinness' character playing part of a Cardinal says 'Don't judge the priesthood by the priest.'

am in a similar situation to OP, as a cultural catholic i've always felt that i got a lot of positives from my upbringing in a church community and education.

i'm just all at sea with this, tbh. ratzinger put round a directive to say to keep all investigations going for years so that the statute of limitations for reporting as a crime was breached and the victims were out of time. i mean, that's the actions of a wicked, wicked man.

my dad had a friend who was a bishop, they had the same east end upbringing, same education, same kind of family etc etc. in the 70s, if my dad had thought someone had abused me or another child in any way, i know he would have been on the phone to the police. i'm pretty horrified to think that his friend must have thought or behaved differently. they're the bad guys, and i always assumed that they were the good guys.

me and dh were talking about it last night, i can see why if a man is having unnacceptable urges towards children that the priesthood might seem like a good option, as it is supposed to make men less focussed on the flesh and more on the spiritual. if that's the case, and the church wasn't handling these people properly, well it makes the priesthood like a grooming programme for paedophiles.

Pope John Paul 2 lifted the strict application of the Statute of Limitations in 2002. It is dealt out on a case by case basis and if a Bishop requests it's lifting in any case it is usually granted.

sorry, can you explain further please?

lesinge I didn't know that about the statute of limitation thingy. if that's true it is deepy shocking. It means they knew exactly what they were doing, and were acting not out of panic or not knowing how to handle it, but out of a determined effort to ensure that the people doing this got off scott free.

macman yes please can you explain a bit more? i thought the statute of limitations was a thing in america after which you can't prosecute - maybe I'm wrong?

dh told me he read about it in the paper yesterday. will see if he can send me the link.

Well, according to Monsigneur Charles Scicluna who is the Promoter of Justice for the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, a prosecutor, the practice of having a 10 year statute of limitations was not long enough so Pope John Paul 2 granted the Congregation the power to revoke the statute on a case by case basis. If a Bishop requests it then it's granted usually. Tis all available in the public domain...

It was granted in Nov 2002...

This is obviously for church investigations and trials..not criminal prosecutions in the country of the crime..

Oh right I thought lesinge was talking about the clergy making sure that they controlled the initial complaint, and to make sure they took so long about it that the victim was out of time reporting to the proper authorities IYSWIM.

I may well have read her post wrong.

i thought that's what dh said as well, but will check, imsonottelling.

although might i just say... 2002? fuck that.

I know

It's all over the BBC front page again today.

www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article7065824.ece german statute of limitations is ten years. dh says he read elsewhere about the missive to bury beyond that period, he can't find the piece. (btw roger boyes, v unfortunate surely?)

the fact that it's all coming out now, really, it's hard to deny that the church is a playground for paedophiles.

From what I can gather there were sadly a lot of cases reported to the Congregation in 2003/04. This seems to have overwhelmed them, somewhat, however that doesn't excuse the handling of these cases. A lot of accusations were handled at a diocesan level, why, I don't know. Culture of the times maybe? Covering and trying to protect the reputation of those involved, victims and priest alike. Wrongly I might add. Then things gathered a head of steam and older crimes that weren't taken to the Congregation started arriving on their desks... According to Mons Scicluna no cases were reported to them between 1975-85. I'm sure crimes were being committed, but not being reported as high as the Congregation...