Scriptural question - can anyone answer?

[MrsCadwallader]

This is something I've been wondering about for a while and which has come up a couple of times in my bible study group. Sadandisolated's thread about divorce in the Catholic church has made me wonder again, so I thought I'd ask here and see if anyone can answer my question!

Where, in the Bible, does it actually define what a marriage is? I've only ever seen it defined as a 'union between a man and a woman' and that a man / woman leaves his family and becomes one with his / her husband or wife. Is there a scriptural law that says that unless you have stood up, declared your fidelity to each other in front of others, had a priest / rabbi approve it, and sign a piece of paper, then is isn't a marriage? Or is the marriage ceremony simply a religious / social convention?

The question first came up when we were discussing the idea of 'living in sin' - a couple of the members of my group are not married, but have long-term partners and children together. To my mind, that constitutes a marriage - it's a partnership and a union between a man and a woman. Unless, of course, there is something in scripture that says we have to go through the marriage ceremony in order for a marriage to exist?

Can anyone tell me? Apologies if this is a really stupid question but I would really like to know!

Sorry to post and run, but this may help?

christianity.about.com/od/whatdoesthebiblesay/a/marriagecovenan.htm

Thank you - that's a very useful link!

I'm still not convinced about this part though:

"When Jesus spoke to the Samaritan woman at the well in John 4, he revealed something very important, something we often miss in this passage. In verses 17-18, Jesus said to the woman, "You have correctly said, ?I have no husband?; for you have had five husbands, and the one whom you now have is not your husband; this you have said truly." The woman had been hiding the fact that the man she was living with was not her husband. According to the New Bible Commentary notes on this passage of Scripture, Common Law Marriage had no religious support in the Jewish faith. Living with a person in sexual union did not constitute a "husband and wife" relationship. Jesus made that plain here.

Therefore, position number 1 (the couple is married in the eyes of God when the physical union is consummated through sexual intercourse) does not have a foundation in Scripture."

Surely the passage quoted is also consistent with the idea that marriage is formed at the sexual consummation of a relationship - therefore your 'spouse' is the first person you have that relationship with - any further union is an adulterous one and not a true marriage in the eyes of God. If this woman had had five 'husbands', one might assume that this means five sexual partners. Only the first could be her 'husband' in God's eyes, which is why her current husband was not truly her husband?

I don't know - I don't want to split hairs for the sake of it (nor give the impression that I don't have any faith in the institution of marriage - I do, very much so). I guess it's just an ongoing process of trying to thrash out what God's 'natural' laws are against what has grown up out of man-made custom and convention. I'm quite happy for God to tell me how to live my life - I'm much less happy about a man doing so

Another post and run comment, but if she had been married to a man, and died without giving birth to a child, then under ... law (fill in gap when get chance! ), his nearest relative would marry the widow and hence also would be her husband. That's one circumstance.

Also in 'Jewish' law, couldn't a man divorce his wife by saying "I divorce you" 3 times? Again, I'd have to search for references (am just in briefly, but going out for 2pm, hence quick post). Could she then remarry?

Something else to think about...

Now this is a very interesting thread will watch with interest as I want to know more

That is interesting. I'm curious too.

Off hand (this isn't something I was ever looking for) I expect it will turn out that it doesn't define it and that the union/decision to BE married is all that matters.

Was just debating this with DP! MrsCad I'm with you entirely. DP is keen to have me post his views..
The text about becoming one flesh etc is obviously suggestive of committed stable relationships. Marriage, ceremony etc is not mentioned. Old Testament patterns of marriage were based very firmly on property rights. You can't really compare today's "love match" style marriages to the Old Testament models.
The New Testament promotes celibacy above marriage.
My views are that marriage/weddings are so much about respectability and social convention, it is easy to judge people living in a partnership as being uncommitted or whatever but that's superficial - no-one knows (except God presumably!) how sincere a relationship is.

OK I wasn't going to bother commenting but feel I have to.

I understand the umms and aahs about this question. I think though that really these questions come from us, being sinners, wanting everything and making up excuses as to why it is OK.

I did this. When I met my H we started having sex and we made up the excuses that it was OK because we would eventually be getting married and we were commited to each other anyway, regardless of paper. Blah blah blah...

Marriage isn't just about ceremony, it is when you stand in front of God and make very official vows to each other and to Him.

To cut a long story short and also because I have been forgiven for my sins and now want to put it behind me, this didn't work. Everything had been destroyed because of our sin. We got pregnant almost instantly and our marriage has broken down! Everything has feel apart and a lot of it is down to our initial sin. I could make up all the excuses in the world but I knew at the time what I was doing wasn't right (although wouldn't acknowledge it) and was very convicted about it later on.

OK so slight trends may change over time but marriage is there for many reasons. One to make those vows to each other and to God and two to begin a stable and thought out relationship. Marriage does change things. I totally believe it is what God wants from us and I think the Bible says it very clearly. We, sinners, just sometimes chose to interperate things how we want them to be.

My opinion but also my experience.

Thanks for everyone's input. I don't have the time just at the moment to respond in detail but there was a really interesting thought for the day on radio 4 this morning on the subject of marriage. Here is a link to the transcript

I thought it was interesting, especially the part about the line between the historical 'common law' marriage and legal / religious marriage being kept deliberately blurred up until a few hundred years ago, which shows how our (and the church's) attitude towards what constitutes a 'marriage' has changed through history. Food for thought!

meltedchocolate I am deeply sorry for your situation - however the circumstances you describe mirror mine, but for the fact that my marriage has remained intact (for 13 years and counting). I completely agree with your view of what marriage is / should be but I don't believe your marriage failed because of your sin. It failed because you entered into it with the wrong person and / or at the wrong time for you. If marriages failed because of the 'sin' of sleeping with each other before the wedding ceremony took place, then even fewer marriages would survive than currently do.

Hello again Cad. I agree my marriage did not fail simply because my husband and I had sex. We deliberately had sex. Deliberately disobeyed. We rushed into things and everything went horribly wrong. Made up excuses for it all. I agree marriage has changed through time but I think we need to move with it. The Bible talks in a few places of respecting the culture we live in. Marriage is what it is now and I think the guidance about being married is still totally valid and relevant, regardless of how marriage has changed from that time to now. Everyone always says that the bible is just as relevant today as it ever was. I sometimes fear people chose to forget that when it suits.

I am pleased your marriage has stayed intact. I dont think for a second that EVERYONE in my situation would have a failed marriage. I dont even think that my failed marraige is entirely to do with that but my husband and I could not turn back to the Lord while being deliberately disobedient and unfortunately my husband never really did turn back to God. He has not/ will not repent. Anyway.. back to a cheerful subject

meltedchocolate

Interesting God healed me from my (severe) depression only after I married my "living in sin partner" - I know that is not a concidence, how could God forgive me my sexual sin whilst I was in that situation! Sexual sin comes with specific consequences which is why churches have latched onto it as a bigger issue than other sins (rightly or wrongly)

I have a fantastic book on this subject, but I'm sat with dh and am not jumping up to go and find it but will come back another day if the conversation is still going.

The world really doesn't like what God says about marriage because it's sometimes it's hard being obediant to Gods word. Our bodies are a temple for the Holy Spirit and the only sexual union God says is acceptable is between a man & a woman in marriage - it is a 3 way contract with God in the middle of it.

Living in sin did not stop me having a relationship with God and having many prayers answered but it dulled it, I was missing out on so much that God wanted to give me but couldn't give me because I was knowingly living a wrong relationship.

My husband still isn't a believer but God has changed our relationship so much since we got married, all for the better.

Just to emphasise again, I agree with you, mc and sleighgirl on your view of the importance of marriage, I was just questioning what the scriptural definition of marriage actually is. As far as I can see, it isn't defined very specifically anywhere. The only express definition is 'a union between a man and a woman' which is pretty broad!

From my own POV, I became a Christian a long time after I was married (not until we had had children, actually) but it happens that the man I am married to was my first 'proper' boyfriend and so has been my only sexual partner. I was a bit embarrassed about this for a while - my expectation was that I would have had a number of partners before finally settling down for life with someone! Now, of course, I am really glad that this is how it worked out and that our marriage has been so successful. It's difficult not to feel as though there has been a guiding hand though my life steering me in the right direction. As you said, God is at the heart of my marriage - I feel like he knew that this man was good for me, and steered me through all of the (many) temptations of university life and early adulthood to keep me with him

Sorry - slight tangent there!

I think it's interesting though to also look at people's notion of 'sin'. Yes, sexual misconduct is a 'serious sin' but not in the sense that it should be 'punished' severely, but because it can make us the most unhappy. God's laws are not commands, but guides to help us to live more peaceably, IMO. You choose to follow them, or not, at your own discretion. If you do not, your own resulting unhappiness or dissatisfaction is the punishment, not God's displeasure.

HI Mrs C -
Just wanted to correct what Hallelujah said about divorce. As far as I understand it - it is under Muslim law that you can say I divorce you 3 times NOT Jewish law.
In some Jewish traditions (orthodox) I believe it is v v difficult to get a divorce.

PFS

Interesting SG - I agree with everything you said.

I think the difference between our situations Cad is that you were not a Christian when you were 'living in sin'. I KNOWINGLY was doing wrong and the reason I could not continue my realtionship with God successfully was because of the guilt I guess. It took me a long time to turn back.

I think that marriage is what it is now, and then what it was then, and who knows it may be differeent in the future, I think we have to to a large extent, go with the flow.

Interesting thread

OP said this was a scriptural question, but I'm not getting much enlightenment in terms of what scripture says about marriage. Sleighgirl you talk about people obeying God's word, but what word(s) exactly are you referring to? I do also wonder how the large numbers of people on MN who suffer from depression would feel to know it was connected to some kind of "sin" they are committing..

No scriptural law about having a legal service, however there is a scripture (sorry can't remember off hand), that says Pay Ceasers things to Ceaser and Gods things to God. (I think that was to do with taxes)

You could then assume we need to meet the legal requirement for marriage as well as the Biblical one.

Sorry I don't understand the way you are using that quote. As you say, it was about taxes (and an attempt by the questioner to get Jesus into trouble!) and nothing to do with marriage.

Very quickly scanning through the book and paraphrasing (I don't think there is a short cut saying it is this scripture that explains what a marriage is IYSWIM).

There is much biblical evidence that marriage is a covenant relationship see Malachi 2:14, the covenant is achieved throught the making of vows, leaving & cleaving & then consummation.

We are also called to live by the laws of the land that we live in ...the render to Caesar bit in Matthew 22:21 and we are called to be salt and light to the world Matt 5:13-14 which is by being obediant to law of the land we live in unless it is about matters that violate God's word. Therefore we need to be legally married according to the law of land that we live in and have covenant relationship with your spouse.

Does that help at all?

iggi it's the same principle though.

If we live in the UK we should pay UK taxes and abide by UK laws that was what Jesus was saying.

Also the convenant of biblical marriage is 3 way - man & woman with Christ at the centre.

What British law are cohabiting couples breaking exactly? It's certainly true that you can bend scripture to suit any purpose!

cohabiting couples aren't breaking any law at all. They are not married though in the eyes of the law are they, that's the point.

Part of the marriage ceremony both the biblical covenant and the legal UK one is having other people declare you entering into that covenant.

Following on from what Jesus said, if we live in Uk, we should pay taxes to Uk, and if we live in Uk, we should have legal UK marriage.
I think that is your argument?
I really don't think this gives a need to be legally married. The two examples are not analogous.

It's not my argument btw. I am trying to paraphrase from a book written by a christian author who has spent a lot of time researching the bible, given decades of marriage counselling to christian couples struggle and obviously spend a lot of time with God asking for his input.

the biblical marriage covenant requires witnesses to the making of the vows that they are entering into a covenant relationship intended until death of either of them.

Then you leave & cleave

Then you consummate through sex.

(so have co-habiting couples done this to have a biblical covenant marriage without the UK legal certificate?)

The old testament biblical grounds for divorce are only if one of the spouse was not a virgin when the convenant was made and the other spouse did not know this.

There were reasons allowed for in the NT.

If a couple are living in a true marriage covenant with Christ at the centre then there isn't going to abuse of any kind etc.

Does that help at all?

Caesers things to Caeser: the principle is following the laws of the land (as long as they don't break Gods laws), whether it be paying taxes, getting married, declaring whether you have a TV, registering your car etc......