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Scriptural question - can anyone answer?

41 replies

MrsCadwallader · 22/01/2010 07:10

This is something I've been wondering about for a while and which has come up a couple of times in my bible study group. Sadandisolated's thread about divorce in the Catholic church has made me wonder again, so I thought I'd ask here and see if anyone can answer my question!

Where, in the Bible, does it actually define what a marriage is? I've only ever seen it defined as a 'union between a man and a woman' and that a man / woman leaves his family and becomes one with his / her husband or wife. Is there a scriptural law that says that unless you have stood up, declared your fidelity to each other in front of others, had a priest / rabbi approve it, and sign a piece of paper, then is isn't a marriage? Or is the marriage ceremony simply a religious / social convention?

The question first came up when we were discussing the idea of 'living in sin' - a couple of the members of my group are not married, but have long-term partners and children together. To my mind, that constitutes a marriage - it's a partnership and a union between a man and a woman. Unless, of course, there is something in scripture that says we have to go through the marriage ceremony in order for a marriage to exist?

Can anyone tell me? Apologies if this is a really stupid question but I would really like to know!

OP posts:
JeMeSouviens · 27/01/2010 22:38

Sorry, others answered better than I, I always have trouble explaining myself.

Yes, you don't have to be legally married, but if you want to be married from a Christian viewpoint, then you would have to fulfil the legal requirements of marriage also.

onagar · 27/01/2010 22:40

Just on the point of obeying local laws if it were illegal to cohabit in this country then that instruction might apply. As it isn't illegal it wouldn't apply.

iggi999 · 27/01/2010 22:42

Well you've succeeded in making me get my Bible out CarGirl! Can't see the leaving and cleaving bit in Malachi 2, but maybe just have different translation (GNB).
Ok though, the same chapter also says marriage is for the purpose of having children, which is a bit rough on anyone who can't.. and that one of the terrible things the people have done which God is unhappy about is to marry women who worship foreign gods. So Sleighgirl for instance (who said DH was non-believer) surely falls into this category?
What gets to me is the exhaltation of rules about marriage, while the many other biblical rules are taken more of a pick-and-mix by many people (not aiming that at you Car)

CarGirl · 27/01/2010 22:43

ehhhh - think I'm trying to answer a different question!

The question originally was what makes a marriage exist................

If you're cohabiting then you are not married because that is our law you have to have the legal paperwork. Having a covenant ceremony and doing the rest but not having the paperwork would mean that you are not married because that is the law........you would still be seen as co-habiting?

CarGirl · 27/01/2010 22:48

I really struggled with marrying my dh because he's not a believer but I had already been stupid and co-habited with him, had children etc.

So I had a decision either I married him so that our marriage could have God's blessing or we split up.

Thanks to God's grace when we stuff up big time we can repent, we can receive forgiveness and often God can make it all alright again.

So I know have a marriage under God's blessing and I can ask for blessings for my family. I have to live every day a little bit lonely that my dh doesn't share my faith that I can't pray with him, that he doesn't share my perspective and that if he died tonight he doesn't have a relationship with God and will not spend eternity in heaven.

will go and look up where the leave and cleave is probably somewhere different.....

CarGirl · 27/01/2010 22:51

Matt 19:3-8

3Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?"

4"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,'[a] 5and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'[b]? 6So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

7"Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?"

8Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.

It's very much that God designed us to live one and we as a species have chosen to live a different way. God permitted divorce because we were hard hearted - yet again he design something perfect (a Godly marriage (ie one where both people are putting Christ first)) and we rejected it.

iggi999 · 27/01/2010 22:52

OP seemed to be wondering about the long-term partners with children she knew in her church, and wondering whether this was "living in sin". That's what I've been dwelling on!
I suppose the emphasis for me seems to be on the ceremony (or lack of it) whereas for me the relationship, its fidelity and compassion etc, mean far more than a ceremony could.
In some churches marriage is a sacrament, I know it's not in my church.
Also leaves big question regarding gay couples if a marriage ceremony is the only way to be together "legitimately".

CarGirl · 27/01/2010 23:13

I think that opens a bigger discussion about what God created sex for (and it's not just babies!)

Humans are spiritual beings which is why most people do seek for something spiritual, it's part of our design. We create spiritual soul ties with people we are closely linked to like family members and of course sexual partners. So people who live unGodly lives can sort of infect you with lots of unhealthy spiritual stuff often without us being aware of it. Such as controlling parents, bullying siblings as random examples.

The bible is very clear on that marriage is between a man and a woman and that is the only basis for "Godly" sex. So simply put a christian co-habiting whether in a homosexual or male/female relationship is not having sex that God approves. Homosexuality and fornification was probably just as common in old testament times as it is now, there probably was no marriage in many cultures. That is why God called Israel to live differently including to marry.

The consequence of not being married is that you miss out on some of God's blessings. God is not able to bless something that his outside of what he permits (or He would be contradicting himself). Yes you can be a spirit filled christian and behave in ways that are against God's word (don't we all at times right throughout our lives) when we are knowingly disobedient to God then we do miss out on blessing as we are not as close to God as we could be.

This is a huge area that really often isn't talked about properly. Many churches don't belive in the power of the Holy Spirit today, healings, demons being cast out etc etc

Not sure I'm answering you questions at all just adding more information in that is too much to explain properly.

It's not about the ceremony in a big do type way. It's about making consciously making covenant promises to each other and it being witnessed by a someone who is also a christian.

It's probably worth buying a few books on the topic and reading through them. Sex-God's truth by Jill Southern is definately worth reading. It certainly said things I didn't like but I can't find any biblical evidence to contradict what is in there...........

It explains very well why sex is such a big issue to God which in turns explains why God created marriage.

CarGirl · 27/01/2010 23:19

Googled a bit

This is very interesting

preceptaustin.org/the_covenant_of_marriage.htm

BTW when I first turned back to God I didn't take communion for years because I was co-habiting. For me it was a very big thing but I knew what God said about marriage I knew I was living contrary to God's commands.

The commandment "thou shalt not committ adultery" is actually "fornification" There is nothing in the new testament that contradicts the keeping of the 10 comandments.

CarGirl · 27/01/2010 23:23

This bit in particular may help

In a parallel passage which also emphasizes the truth that God considers marriage to be a covenant, the prophet Malachi explains to his Jewish audience why Jehovah was paying no attention and taking no pleasure in their offerings, writing...

Yet you say, ?For what reason?? Because Jehovah has been a witness (thus God is able to speak of their violation of covenant since He had witnessed their matrimonial pledges of mutual loyalty) between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously, though she is your companion (this Hebrew word is derived from the root habar meaning to fasten together, to join together or to unite and in context implies harmony and working together to achieve life?s goals while sharing the hardships, pain and joys; LXX = koinonos = derived from koinos which means that which is in common or shared by all. Koinonos thus describes one who participates with another in an enterprise or matter of joint concern!) and your wife by covenant (beriyth = a serious, solemn, binding oath). (Malachi 2:14)

God goes on to add...

I hate divorce," says the LORD, the God of Israel, "and him who covers his garment with wrong," says the LORD of hosts. "So take heed to your spirit, that you do not deal treacherously. (Malachi 2:16)

The same verse in the Amplified translation reads...

Yet you ask, 'Why does He reject it?' Because the Lord was witness [to the covenant made at your marriage] between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously (this verb conveys the idea of unfaithfulness in relationships like marriage, as in Jeremiah 3:20) and to whom you were faithless. Yet she is your companion and the wife of your covenant [made by your marriage vows]. (Bolding added)

So why did God reject Israel's "worship" as "worthless"? In this context it was because they had not been faithful to their marriage covenant! Is God serious about the covenant of marriage! The tragedy is that today so many view marriage as a contract, (a business arrangement for the supply of goods or services at a fixed price: Merriam-Webster) not as a covenant founded on Biblical principles. If the contract does not work out, the parties involved mutually agree to terminate the agreement and go their separate ways, and a divorce ensues. Time Magazine had an article in 1993 stating that it was easier in the United States to walk away from a marriage than from a commitment to purchase a used car! This is a tragic statement! Most contracts cannot be unilaterally abrogated, but marriages in open minded America can be terminated by practically anyone at any time, and without cause.

John MacArthur comments that this verse in Malachi

accentuated the iniquity (of violating their marriage vows) by mentioning the legally binding nature of the marriage contract, a covenant made before God as Witness. (MacArthur, J.: The MacArthur Study Bible Nashville: Word or Logos)

Thomas Constable adds that

The marriage relationship is a covenant relationship, and those who break their vows should not expect God to bless them. God Himself acted as a witness when the couple made their covenant of marriage in their youth." (Constable's Expository Notes on the Bible)

R C Sproul adds that...

Marriages are our closest human relationships and should emulate most nearly our fellowship with God. The rise and fall of marriage in a society acts as a barometer by which to measure the godliness of that culture...

First, marriage is a covenant. This is the keystone of the analogy Paul makes in Ephesians 5 between earthly marriage and the relationship between Christ and the church. The bond between Jesus and His bride forms the New Covenant, the spiritual reality of which human marriages are a type. Malachi 2:14 explicitly makes the connection between marriage and covenant. But what does that mean? We should consider several aspects of a covenant.

First, a covenant establishes a bond between two parties, in this case the husband and wife. At the heart of this bond is a promise, the promise of faithfulness.

Second, a covenant establishes obligations. A primary obligation in marriage is fidelity. The husband is obligated to lead his wife in love, and she is obligated to submit to him in the fear of the Lord.

Third, a covenant is public. It is contracted before witnesses. There is a great difference between the whispered pledges of a boy in the back seat of a car and the solemn vows of a young man before God and witnesses in the ceremony of holy matrimony. This public character of the covenant means that marriage is a social institution that society has an interest in preserving. As an institution, marriage is regulated by the Word of God. That the marriage covenant is not simply a private affair becomes clear when we consider divorce. Divorce wrecks the lives of children. Divorce destroys peace of mind and damages the effectiveness of employees. Divorce upsets friends and family. For Christians, an ungodly divorce forces the elders of the church to exercise discipline. Marriage is the closest possible relationship between two depraved human beings. Thus, marriage is potentially a wonder of grace or the scene of intense pain."

MrsCadwallader · 29/01/2010 07:22

Cargirl - just wanted to thank you for your detailed contribution. I'm not ignoring it, I just haven't had time to give your replies the attention they deserve yet!

OP posts:
iggi999 · 29/01/2010 12:13

Hi CarGirl, it is very interesting to read about that point of view, for me though I guess I come from a different tradition of Christianity and maybe give prominence to different things. So when I read about the importance of marriage, but at the same time that wives must submit to husbands and be led by them, it kind of switches something off for me - I just can't believe in that.
I do still wonder, would God prefer a 30 year faithful, cohabiting relationship or a 5 year marriage followed by divorce?

CarGirl · 29/01/2010 13:27

MrsC don't worry, I didn't really expect there to be so much interest!

Iqqi.

Yes we are told that wives must submit to their husbands authority BUT husbands must LOVE their wives like Christ loved the church.

The bible is very clear on what love is, love is patient, love is kind etc etc etc (from corinthians) and Christ loved the church enough to die for it.

So as I was always taught from the pulpit it's is very easy for a wife to submit and by led by a christian husband who is right before God in the way he love her.

I agree though in many mainstream long standing christian churches they have become patriarchal and very keen for wives to submit without recognising or putting into practice a husbands responsibility towards his wife and family. Additionally the man will be judeged by God for the way he has conducted himself with regards to the authority he has in God's eyes over his wife and children. I was like when I did a bible study on that, that is such a responsibility. Imagine standing before God as a husband and being asked "how could you say you love me and yet you treated your wife like that" - scary stuff if I think about it!

God hates sin end of.

I think God grieves equally over a divorce and those co-habiting.

If someone is happily co-habiting imagine how thrilled God must be if then they get married so He can pour out blessings on them above and beyond what they already have because they are blessings that He couldn't give to them whilst they weren't??? Imagine the witness if they get married and people ask why and they respond because God has asked it of them?

God standards are impossible for us to achieve and as Christians we will suffer for our faith (we are warned about it time and time again) it's only with the supernatural help of the Holy Spirit living in us that we are able to achieve anything close to what He requires of us.

Believe me I struggled with getting married, I really didn't want to be married although I was committed to my partner of 7 years etc. Yet it made a huge difference, even people at the church I attend did the joking "is it any different then" and some of them were shocked when I said "yes for the better, should have done it years ago" It has only made a difference spiritually not in any other way.

iggi999 · 29/01/2010 20:17

Thank you for your thoughtful replies to my questions, CarGirl. I'm just not going to see things this way I'm afraid, I don't have a view that God blesses the faithful and withholds blessings from the rest, it just doesn't square with my experience of life and my opinions about God - the good suffer more often than the "bad", it seems to me. I can't imagine that God has decided to make the bad things that have happened to me happen because I'm not married - nor that in a few months (when I'm getting married) that God will send good things my way. I just don't believe it works that way.
I completely accept that this is one way of interpreting the Christian faith, but it simply isn't mine I'm afraid.

CarGirl · 29/01/2010 20:28

I think you have in part misunderstood what I mean about blessings.

God does not make bad things happen, he allows people to experience suffering otherwise we would have to be living in heaven where satan has no dominion.

Perhaps the blessing I'm refering to is simply a closer relationship to God, the more you let Him change you, you are faithful to Him and you are obediant to Him then the closer your relationship is and that is a blessing in itself and how God wants christians to live rather than in this remote state where we know the basics and try to live "good" lives it's all about your relationship with him.

I am not saying I am there yet btw!

iggi999 · 30/01/2010 15:35

Ah, thanks, that makes more sense to me when you put it like that. Will reflect on this some more!

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